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    The comments are owned by the poster. We aren’t responsible for their content.

    Re: New user feelings (Score: 1)
    by DanielS on Thursday, January 24 @ 11:22:17 GMT
    (User Info) http://piro.kabuki.sfarc.net/daniel/

    > I remember once when people who distributed Linux actually enjoyed interaction with the users. Unforunately it now seems that there are certain criteria placed upon people before they can ask.

    I remember once when I enjoyed interaction with the users. At the time, I was maintaining a couple of tiny packages, which had a lot to do with it. By the time the feedback reaches a certain amount, it just starts to shit you. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy interaction, I’m all for it, but when it gets to the point where you start *skimming* through +inbox (which is minus all the mailing lists, spam, BTS mail, etc), then I think you need to reassess the level of interaction you participate in.

    > Think about it. You can either go into your little clique and moan about how nobody appreciates all the hard work and in a few years dissapear back into the realm of techies or you can continue making progress into the commercial world by treating people as people and not people who are invading your time, even though they are 🙂

    >

    >

    > I think it is time that people wake up and realise what they have to do in order to cut it in the real commercial world.

    >

    >

    > BTW I love Debian, and have never recommended anything else but you guys are working against me getting it adopted in the real commercial world.

    OK, let me state my honest opinion: I don’t care. I want to see Debian as a better, stronger, distribution. I don’t care which CIO’s desktop it lands on, I don’t care if it’s featured on the front page of the New York Times or if the Wagga Wagga milkbar starts selling Tux plush dolls, I really don’t.

    Have a look at www.spi-inc.org and www.debian.org some day, and see how commercially-oriented it is. About as much as I am.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Thursday, January 24 @ 13:01:32 GMT

    Just a little remind: Debian’s objective is not making Linux popular. Linux is just the kernel we’re using at this time. There are many free kernels Debian can use (5?). What we’re empowering is the Debian system, not its components.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 1)
    by DanielS on Thursday, January 24 @ 13:50:21 GMT
    (User Info) http://piro.kabuki.sfarc.net/daniel/

    Curiously, this was later posted as a (rejected) submission.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Maintainers feelings (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Thursday, January 24 @ 14:45:23 GMT

    Please don’t respond in flame. I am not having a go at anyone, I am just telling you how it comes across to outsiders.

    Ok, this isn’t a flame. But I think you should spend a few weeks in tech support and see if you don’t get a little snippy.

    Consideration is a two-way street. If you want some, you need to give some.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Thursday, January 24 @ 14:53:12 GMT


    I remember once when people who distributed Linux actually enjoyed interaction with the users.

    Most still do, with most users.


    Unforunately it now seems that there are certain criteria placed upon people before they can ask.

    RTFM has been a part of Un*x culture for a long time. No “now” about it.


    Why is it that I read more and more about developers getting arsy with their customers?

    Our what? If you want to be treated as a customer, pay me. If you don’t, you get the same treatment everyone else does. Which in my case happens to default to friendly, but tends to be less friendly if you are in the “do my homework for me now” class.


    How am I supposed to recommend to an MD of a 1100 strong company that they can take on Linux because the support network is much stronger then commmercial offerings if the first time they post an article they get flamed?

    If they aren’t prepared to be occasionally flamed, let them get a consultant who knows how Linux support works to handle support for them. TANSTAAFL.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Thursday, January 24 @ 15:46:38 GMT

    The problem here is that you’re comparing Debian support to commercial support. Debian support is staffed by volunteers, while commercial support gets paid. They get paid to know the answers and be nice about responding to the same question three thousand times. They get paid for being professional and timely and all that. Debian maintainers do this in their spare time, which I’m sure they think is precious enough already. You should be thanking them for all the stuff they already do because they want to, without them we wouldn’t have this great system. If you want commercial quality support, stop being a whiney freeloader and hire someone with the know-how to support you.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Thursday, January 24 @ 18:16:57 GMT

    >> I do not contribute to Linux, I do not contribute to Debian. Frankly I don’t have time. I do however advocate Linux at work and everywhere I go. I am already responsible for 100s of people switching over to Linux.

    Be careful about wearing that sort of thing as a badge of honor.

    >>The main selling points are stability and (more importantly) user support.

    No, the main selling point is *Freedom*, not stability and support. Stability and support are positive side effects.

    >>I endlessly brag about the quick feedback from the developers, the personal one to one you get through ICQ etc.

    I feel this is like bragging about the size of the fish you catch at a certain spot. That does not guarantee that others will have similiar luck. Especially with support being people driven, the interaction between two specific persons really determines the outcome. If you have a patient and considerate user seeking support, they will usually find patient and considerate responses.

    >>Why is it that I read more and more about developers getting arsy with their customers?

    Possibly because of the user boom. The ecosystem (if I may use that anology) is considerably tipping more and more towards the users outnumbering the developers. Users contribute greatly with bug reports and testing. But they have to remember that is their role in said ecosystem, not poaching and then demanding support.

    >>if you genuinely want Linux to succeed you have to embrace the users

    This could be a fair statement to a developer who cares passionately about their work. But the entry cost for Linux users is different than just plunking down money and expecting turnkey results ala a true commercial operation that is driven by the market and public perception of the product. There is no drive to shape the perception of GNU/Linux. The drive is to improve the quality which for the most part is always a behind the scenes effort.

    >>moan about how nobody appreciates all the hard work and in a few years dissapear back into the realm of techies or you can continue making progress into the commercial world

    Which world/realm in this statement is the horse, and which is the water? You cannot force your goals on someone volunteering unless you want to contribute as well (with either your time/skill, or money).

    The bottom line is every person is going to have a different set of expectations than his/her neighbor. Instead of focusing on the differences, lets try to bridge the divide in our differences and get work done. Instead of complaining, offer to help solve a problem in whatever way is within your capacity.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 1)
    by node on Friday, January 25 @ 06:06:28 GMT
    (User Info)

    > I am just telling you how it comes across to

    > outsiders.

    What makes you think we care? Remember that that is what you are: an outsider. Why on earth is everybody so godammned concerned about the commercial success of GNU/Linux? Who the fuck wants “success in the commercial world” when all it means is extra lame-ass comments like this?

    “I’m not a techie, I don’t know anything about programming, I’m of absolutely no use to anybody in the community, I don’t understand the difference between free and open source software, but I have this comment about you and what you do which I hope you’ll listen to and follow: …” Keep your fucking comments to yourself. Either that, or use windows, like I give a fuck what fucking OS you use. If you’re too lazy to get off your ass and do anything to help, shut you trap. And you can tell the MD of the “1100 strong company” the same, like I’m supposed to bow down and suck his dick because he might.. use my software? What the fuck makes you think I want some idiot MD telling all his clueless imps to use GNU/Linux instead of windows? What would that mean? More fucking lameass shit from clueless newbies is what. Fuck ’em.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Debian users are not customers (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Friday, January 25 @ 07:48:56 GMT

    Sure, it’s nice if people are polite and it’s
    too bad that certain Debian developers are not.

    But Debian users are not customers of Debian
    developers. Customers pay money, and as a
    result have earned a right to expect something.
    Claiming to be a “customer” is just going to
    piss people off.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 1)
    by cyates on Friday, January 25 @ 10:18:53 GMT
    (User Info)

    People have mentioned that I comparing Debian support to commercial support.


    I am not, I am saying that for any open source software to survive it has to compete with commercial tools.


    In this case, obviously support is a big thing for the commercial and non-commercial environment.


    Instead of blaming all the users for not reading the right papers in obscure places why don’t you put up a couple of sites that act as a gateway for users.


    Oh wait, isn’t that what DebianPlanet and debianhelp are for 🙂


    Why don’t you set up a system where people can email in questions and they are randomly assigned to an individual in a pool of techies, not necessarily developers, just people who can answer the emails.


    You could even make it public so people post up a question then other people can answer.

    Hang on, isn’t that again, the point of debianplanet 😉


    Seriously, Mandrake has excellent technical support and online queries.


    Look at mandrakeuser, mandrakeexpert, mandrakecampus etc. etc.

    [ Reply | Parent ]


    Re: New user feelings (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 24 @ 03:49:43 BST

    Back in the days of dos and wordperfect I used to help people out setting up their machines, sorting problems out etc. Then I started getting asked to set up computer accounting systems, fix hardware problems, walk people through installations, etc. Now I don’t know anything about computers. I don’t care what people do with them. I don’t help anybody. Why? because I was a free consultant. I have no interest in doing that. I program what I want. If somebody can use it, fine. If somebody wants to help me finish it, fine. If they can’t read the source code to figure it out, I don’t care.

    Derek

    [ Reply | Parent ]


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