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    Interviews: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot)
    Posted on Saturday, December 01 @ 16:51:01 GMT

    Interviews
    The installer is the heart of any Operating System -- Debian is no different. The mature but ageing boot-floppies installer will rear its head for the last time in woody. In this interview with Adam Di Carlo, one of the lead developers of this system, we investigate the past, present and future of the Debian installation system ready for the upcoming release of woody: The next generation of Debian.

    What do you think about the potato install system - boot floppies, what do you like and what do you think could be improved?

    There are a few things that need to be improved:

    • Internationalization -- we actually have most of the work done, we're just got to get the stuff to fit in the space provided
    • Bugs in the bug tracking system
    • Support as much hardware as we can (reasonably!)
    • work decently well on the new architectures -- see below. We always need more help testing and improving installation for new architectures.

    What needs to be improved still is handling of failure cases. For
    example, right now we're strugging with how to detect whether dhcp has
    failed. Since we've moved from pump to dhcp-client, and the latter
    runs as a daemon and brings up the interface even without an IP, we're
    falsely concluding that the interface is working right.

    There are plenty of little problems like that, and I'm sure many your
    readers are familiar with the frustrations which happen when the
    install system fails in a very ungraceful way.

    The kernel we use varies from architecture to architecture; for i386,
    we're sticking to 2.2.x for size reasons.

    What is your favourite part of the installation.

    Zipping through by hitting return over and over. People might also be
    interested to know they can suppress many prompts by use the 'quiet'
    boot argument.

    Personally I enjoy the flexibility provided by the installation system, how is that being build upon and improved for the woody release?

    Well, if we can get internationalization completed, that would be a
    major win, and I believe would set us up to compete with SUSE much
    better. Base installation is more flexible now, although more from
    the system management perspective than the user perspective. Some
    annoying steps, such as the timezone selection, have been improved
    (and moved later in the install process). We have also made some
    inroads in install automation -- that is not completely there yet, but
    at least it should be easier for customizers and third parties to work
    with the boot-floppies.

    There really haven't been all that many major UI changes, since the
    current installation system (boot-floppies) is end-of-life. More on
    that later.

    What are the major changes and improvements?

    This is really an incremental upgrade from Potato. However, a few
    notable changes have been made.

    Base installation is now done with debootstrap, from the package with
    the same name. This means that we're not providing packed and split
    base images with the install system (boot-floppies) anymore. One of
    the benefits of this is that changes in the archives, such as security
    fixes, can be used by the install system the moment they enter the
    archive. By the way, debootstrap can also be used to install a Debian
    chrooted potato or woody or sid system on any machine.
    The other major change is of course the new architectures we support.
    As you no doubt know, Debian supports more types of machines than any
    other Linux distribution. In woody, we've added hppa, ia64, mips,
    mipsel, and s390.

    There are rumors that we support installation over point-to-point
    links better (such as over PLIP). This was added for s390; I believe
    we need a bit more work to get this working for other architectures.

    And can you explain briefly how the improved installation system works.

    Well, it works much the same as how the previous installation system
    worked. We have managed to improve the documentation and keep it
    up-to-date with the changes. Keep your eye on
    http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/, we should have the new
    installation manual up there shortly.

    What does the future hold for the installer beyond woody?

    Well, after woody, the boot-floppies package will be removed; we're
    changing over to a new system called 'debian-installer'.

    It should be noted here first that the boot-floppies system is a very
    ancient code base. I believe there still some lines in there from
    Eric Raymond! It has some very deep design flaws, the worst being
    overall fragility and too much "coupling" in the technical parlance.
    It is very sensitive to changes in the base system of the Debian
    archive. The build process is a monster. And the installer itself
    isn't modular and doesn't do the right thing when it fails.

    'debian-installer' will address all of this by using a modular design.
    We're hoping to get a single floppy installation for those
    architectures which support floppy booting. We're also looking to get
    rid of all those nasty "flavors" of installation on i386 -- the idea
    is to use a kernel that supports baseline install media (such as
    disks, network, CD-ROM), and not itself needing to support all the
    targetted hardware which you're installing to. An initrd and kernel
    modules are used to make this work. This should open up alternative
    hardware which cannot be used to install from right now, such as
    PCMCIA floppies or CDs.

    The new system will lead by Joey Hess rather than myself. You might
    know him as the debconf maintainer (among others). In conjunction
    with all the other developers from the debian-boot@lists.debian.org
    list, he has come up with a design of the new system which uses a
    debconf-style system and a mini-dpkg (called udpkg, using .udeb files)
    which will make the whole build and install process much more modular.

    This should also be a big win for those Debian repackagers who want to
    improve the build system. In the past, these folks have generally
    started from scratch with their own system. Our hope is that they are
    able to make their improvements by providing new or alternative udebs,
    minimizing changes that need to be made to the core installer.


    Many users look at other distributions and see, graphical installers. Will woody have a graphical installer, if not when will we see a
    graphical Debian installer.

    Well, we should have that, we hope, with the release after woody. The
    debian-installer system, being modelled after debconf, is
    UI-independant. So it should be possible to provide an X11/GNOME
    installer, or, better yet, an installer which uses fbdev. I point
    this out since most of the graphical installers I've seen for Linux
    use X11; if you used a windowing/UI system which only used fbdev, I
    think you'd get a much more robust system.

    Debian Planet often covers much work with alternative filesystems, what filesystems will be supported natively by the installer?

    With woody, i386 now supports ext3 and reiserfs. However, due to our
    problems with install modularity, there may be a number of machines
    that are not able to use these kernels. OTOH, you can always replace
    the kernel and drivers used on the installation system. This is
    another thing which should be greatly improved with the
    debian-installer, being able to exploit kernel modules loaded from the
    initrd.


    What cool nifty, jaw-dropping, useful innovative eye-candy/features will
    we see in the installer into the future. What would you like to see?

    I think a UI installer is the main thing which will make Debian more
    attractive for newbies. This is a group that I think we underserve
    right now, and I'd like to see that change.

    The other thing which should be doable with debian-installer is
    automated installation. Ideally, you could do an install on one
    system in "record" mode, then take the decisions made there, ship them
    to a boot-server, and do a "cookie cutter" installation over and over
    again from there. This should be a big win for system administrators.

    How can people help and aid with the development of the installer? How should they contribute?

    Well, at this stage we need complete upgrade testing as well as
    installation system refinement. Upgrades are outside the purview of
    the installation system, but people interested in helping there should
    join debian-testing from lists.debian.org

    Discussions on the installation system proper is done at
    debian-testing. This list is for developers of

    'boot-floppies' and 'debian-installer'. We're working on both in
    parallel, now that the boot-floppies has stabilized.

    Users with problem reports or suggestions can also just submit bugs
    against the constitutuent packages, without having to join the
    Developer discussion list. Here are the packages to file bugs
    against:

    • boot-floppies -the install system proper (note that the new boot-floppies has a "Report a Problem" step which can be used to report problems. This includes some useful extra info, such as /var/log/installer.log and version data.)
    • modconf - the kernel module UI
    • base-config - the post-reboot UI
    • kernel-image-* - most issues about supported hardware go here, such as kernels not available, patches needing to be applid, etc. Figure out which kernel-image package is used for your architecture, subarchitecture, or flavor as appropriate
    • debootstrap - installing base system
    • busybox - problems with the utilities shipped on the root disk of the boot-floppies.

    If you are not sure, you can file the bug against boot-floppies (be
    sure to include version and architecture information!) and we can
    reassign the bug if needed.

    For those of you who have non-i386 architectures, we really do need
    more testing and suggestions.

    Thankyou for giving your valuable time to answer my questions, I wish you the best of luck with your valued work

    Thanks to Debian Planet for giving me a soap box -- hopefully it will
    shed some light and improve the upcoming major release of Debian.

     
    Related Links

  • More about Interviews
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    Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot)

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  • "Interviews: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot)" | Login/Create Account | 40 comments
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    The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content.

    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Saturday, December 01 @ 19:31:27 GMT


    I´d like to remind that Plex86 (i386 virtualizator) packages are available in Sid. Bochs (full i386 emulator) is also on the way, those could be useful for installer developers.

    keep on the good work!

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Saturday, December 01 @ 20:42:21 GMT

    Speakins of testing.. where does one go about grabbing boot-floppies/iso images of testing?

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Saturday, December 01 @ 22:01:13 GMT

    Afaik there are no ISO images of testing yet. There are boot-floppies though. They are located here:

    http://http.us.debian.org/debian/dists/woody/main/

    pick the disks-(arch) that you are wanting to install onto.

    Chris Cheney

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Saturday, December 01 @ 22:09:08 GMT

    Short answer: Don't. 🙂

    Long answer: Well, any floppy or CD images you find that are of Woody/testing will be hacked together. I've audited at least a dozen, and all of them had serious flaws which resulted in problems long *after* the installation. So we're not talking about little bugs in the installation system.

    That being said, if you'd like the *test* the Woody boot floppies, go to your local Debian mirror, and some diskette images should be in debian/dists/woody/main/disks-/current

    Have fun, and don't expect anything to work 🙂

    [ Reply ]


    Debian Woody CD-images (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 10:21:57 GMT

    Grab them from a server of this list of mirrors

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 1)
    by Blue (i{S}e{P}u{A}r{M}e@debian.org) on Thursday, December 06 @ 00:32:15 GMT
    (User Info)

    i'd just like to take a moment to plug my woody netinst cd images... they are small (35mb for i386) iso images that only contain the bits of boot-floppies needed to get debian installed over a network.

    [ Reply ]


    Suggestions for new Debian install system (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Saturday, December 01 @ 22:23:17 GMT

    A couple of things strike me as being useful. Firstly, the ability to boot off a loopback fs a la this HOWTO would really lower the entry barrier for windows users.... even though it would slow things down by adding a layer of indirection. But one really good thing (which would probably stop me from needing to compile my own kernel) would be for stock kernels to be compiled with as few things in the kernel as possible. All boot time modules could go on an initrd, then any optional modules could be configured into modutils via a modconf-like utility and loaded into the kernel as they're needed... bit like the NT model I think. That would be decent =)

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Suggestions for new Debian install system (Score: 1)
    by adicarlo on Sunday, December 02 @ 06:03:17 GMT
    (User Info)

    Right, this is the plan for debian-installer.

    Boot-floppies (woody) is not adding major new

    features anymore (at least, not if we can help it).

    [ Reply ]


    Well, well, well, well...well. (Score: 1, Insighful)
    by Anonymous on Saturday, December 01 @ 23:37:48 GMT

    This is nothing personal, it seems to be an epidemic among computer folk (see inktank.com, for a webcomic example).

    Don't start so many sentances with "Well, ". It's redundant and meaningless.

    From m-w.com:

    Main Entry: (4) well
    Function: interjection
    Date: before 12th century
    1 -- used to indicate resumption of discourse or to introduce a remark
    2 -- used to express surprise or expostulation

    I blame the Brits. "Well, I say. What's all this, then?"

    Grrr.

    [ Reply ]


    Someone marked this -1 Troll (Score: 1)
    by Crag on Friday, December 07 @ 23:20:36 GMT
    (User Info)

    I thought that was lame, so I marked it up to 1, Interesting.

    This interview is in text form. It would have been so easy to clean it up before posting it. The poster has a good point, and while it may be a little off-topic, it's hardly trolling.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Well, well, well, well...well. (Score: 1)
    by Glanz (glanz@mssucks.org) on Tuesday, March 12 @ 20:21:08 GMT
    (User Info) http://www.extremetech.com

    Another rule: don't spell "sentences" aa "sentAnces"

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Well, well, well, well...well. (Score: 1)
    by Glanz (glanz@mssucks.org) on Tuesday, March 12 @ 20:22:57 GMT
    (User Info) http://www.extremetech.com

    And don't spell "as" as "aa"... like I just did. LOL

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 02:36:21 GMT

    Is it possible to get the woody boot disks on cdrom? Floppies break so easily, it would be nice to use a cdrom instead (can I just burn the floppies to a cdrom and boot it up?)

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 04:34:47 GMT

    It is possible to make a bootable CDROM that contains multiple floppy images and be able to choose which of those you want to boot, after the CD initially boots. I think this is a feature built into the El Torito spec.

    However, I don't know how you would go about booting off one and then switching to others as need be.

    I've been meaning to make a "swiss army knife" CDR that allows me to boot whatever kernel and utils I need in my day to day work... Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, DOS up to WinME, NT rescue disks, etc etc. And perhaps the remainder of the CD could contain an ISO9660 to be mounted from any of those "boot floppies" with extra goodies.

    I have already done this years ago, but with only one boot floppy image (OSR2) and an ISO image with utils, patches (sigh), apps, etc.

    You can create a 2.88Mb floppy image on your HDD with dd count=5760 if=/dev/zero of=bigfloppy.img and then put a fs onto it with mkfs.whatever, mount it, customize it, etc, etc. Maybe it will be big enough for your needs. Barring that, El Torito supports HDD emulation in addition to FDD, and also no emulation for the geek legends out there. Although the HDD emulation might cause more installer troubles than you'd like.

    Is it possible to get the woody boot disks on cdrom? Floppies break so easily, it would be nice to use a cdrom instead (can I just burn the floppies to a cdrom and boot it up?)

    Maybe you could modify the first boot floppy (using it as the El Torito boot floppy image) to mount the 2nd and 3rd images that you place within the ISO image to be accessed as need be?

    Or as someone else mentioned, root off ISO9660 would be nice...

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 1)
    by Blue (i{S}e{P}u{A}r{M}e@debian.org) on Thursday, December 06 @ 00:35:15 GMT
    (User Info)

    plug, plug - my woody netinst cd does exactly this. you can boot any flavor of disk set from one cd.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 1)
    by adicarlo on Sunday, December 02 @ 06:05:00 GMT
    (User Info)

    Many CD vendors provide woody CDs. I suggest

    Proof Positive Systems, who are also kind enough to provide

    me with testing CDs.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Monday, December 03 @ 12:41:33 GMT

    woody cds are testing cds.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Monday, December 03 @ 19:15:43 GMT

    I think Adam might know that, don't you (look at the username)? I guess he means CDs with which he tests the installation system.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 04:19:56 GMT

    Mmmm, pardon me but...isn't the kernel the heart of an operating system?

    I mean after you install it, that's it you don't see the installer again...

    or am i missing something here?

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 04:33:56 GMT

    There's more to installing a system than plunking down a kernel.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 04:43:11 GMT

    Of course, but the original poster is correct, as important as the installer is, it is hardly the heart of an OS.

    The kernel is absolutely in that position.

    Hell, the installer is usually running as user code on top of the very kernel that it will install! No running kernel, no running installer!!

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 16:49:35 GMT

    Well i mean, once you install debian on a box, chances are you not gonna rebuild the thing for several years. So i mean unless you're admining a server farm that's growing at a willy nilly pace, it's pretty much install it and forget about it, as far as the installer goes. It just seemed like that article put a tad to much importance on something that will be running like .001% of the boxes total lifetime.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 04:41:04 GMT

    the installer doesn't compile a kernel... you are meant to.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 16:50:13 GMT

    Duh.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 1)
    by adicarlo on Sunday, December 02 @ 06:06:31 GMT
    (User Info)

    The real heart of Debian is the Policy and the

    hard work of the countless volunteers, not just

    package maintainers but also users who submit

    quality bugs to improve Debian.

    [ Reply ]


    some corrections (Score: 2, Informative)
    by adicarlo on Sunday, December 02 @ 06:10:46 GMT
    (User Info)

    Some corrections I found while re-reading this.

    For one, the internationalization stuff looks like

    it will be a reality for Woody, in fact, will come

    in on version 3.0.18 of the boot-floppies, which

    will be coming soon. Testing versions at http://people.debian.org/~aph/debian/dists/woody/main/.

    Secondly, the developer mail list is

    debian-boot@lists.debian.org.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 15:35:16 GMT

    For what it's worth.

    I work as a system administrator in an environment with 3 thin clients and a huge amount of servers (app. 3 servers pr. person). Supporting this many machines is a bit tough at the moment. So from my point of view a rule based installation system like Solaris jumpstart would be a big improvement. Thus I would be able to install 1 server. Set up Debian jumpstart and a boot-server (bootp/dhcp) and let the machines burn CPU cycles when installing. This would leave me a lot more time to install customized software afterwards.

    But thanx anyway for the best Linux distro.

    Sven

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 16:22:14 GMT

    You may want to check this project out:

    http://www.informatik.uni-koeln.de/fai/

    [ Reply ]


    automated installation (Score: 1)
    by adicarlo on Sunday, December 02 @ 18:37:14 GMT
    (User Info)

    Well, this is something that some people have

    worked around with the current boot-floppies;

    there's fai and also some of the SiteRock stuff.


    The only really robust way to do this is with

    the mini-debconf based system coming after woody,

    debian-installer.

    [ Reply ]


    Need more packages at install time! (Score: 1)
    by nelson on Sunday, December 02 @ 16:42:42 GMT
    (User Info) http://www.media.mit.edu/~nelson/

    I recently installed Debian for the first time (potato, then upgrade to woody). I've run Linux for seven years, and I was surprised that booting off of CD just worked.

    The biggest problem I ran into was getting all the software I needed installed. I installed the standard 2.2r3 ISO, and afterwards all sorts of basic stuff was missing.

    It took me awhile to learn just to type "apt-get install apache" when I needed apache. In the meantime, I foolishly tried to run dselect. What a nightmare! Sure, I want to choose through 6000 packages via curses. No.

    When you install RedHat, you get a bunch of stuff. With Debian there was no "install a bunch of stuff" option. There should be.

    (The other problem I had was trying to get the ISO. The currect CD builder stuff is hostile; sites should just serve ISOs. Yeah, the bandwidth is high, but the complication of building your own isn't worh it.)

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Need more packages at install time! (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 17:38:01 GMT

    All the task- packages are for getting a lot of stuff without having to select all the packages. The tasksel program for selecting among the task- packages. When I installed potato a while ago, the installer started tasksel for me.

    [ Reply ]


    dselect (Score: 1)
    by adicarlo on Sunday, December 02 @ 18:38:54 GMT
    (User Info)

    I happen to actually like and still use

    dselect, although generally I just use apt-get.

    There are also other dselect killers in woody,

    such as aptitude (which I've tried and is pretty

    good) and console-apt.

    [ Reply ]


    Dselect and Loopback Install (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Monday, December 03 @ 02:10:59 GMT

    Concerning Dselect. It would be too few words to say that I like it. I find being able to look through the available packages, see how selecting them will effect my installed system, get a list of "obsolete" and "unknown" packages still installed, is wonderful.


    Also, being able to see a list of *installed* packages, so I can remove the ones I don't want, is wonderful. I like to be able to eliminate daemons that I don't use, like telnetd, talkd, ftpd, that are generally installed automatically even in Debian.


    For things I don't know by name, the Debian web site for function, then use the package name in dselect to how it effects my system *before* installing.


    Command line apt-get is wonderful if you already know what you want.


    I'll second the request for loopback installation capability. There are at least two different setups available, DragonLinux and LoopLinux, and it looks like it should be "easy" using the Potato(e) base system ".tar.gz" or the upcoming one-floppy install system. Too bad I'm not well versed with initrd, or I'd have already done this myself.


    Bob-

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Dselect and Loopback Install (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Monday, December 03 @ 10:23:51 GMT

    telnetd and ftpd are not installed by default, unless *you* have choosed the task package to install the stuff.

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Need more packages at install time! (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Monday, December 03 @ 16:59:59 GMT

    I think that dselect is a great tool. You should read the help, and then it is very easy. I like the Debian way to install things, because you have more control and more granularity than with other (but good, anyway) distros. I entered Debian with 2.0, spent two days just reading install and dselect manuals. A few years later, that two days are still worth. The ratio (years of use) / (days of reading) is _very_ high. Just my opinion. Regads, Nelson. Pedro Reina

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Sunday, December 02 @ 23:44:27 GMT

    i hoped to see 2.4.14 at least for installing .. thats the only thing that i really need , for need all the new kernel features to run und install funcional systems on brandnewhardware ( e.g software raid1 from point of installation .. )

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Monday, December 03 @ 10:24:41 GMT

    udma100-ext3 has its name for a reason... Allready tried?

    [ Reply ]


    Re: Interview with Adam Di Carlo (of Debian-Boot) (Score: 0)
    by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 05 @ 03:48:03 GMT

    It's really very easy to upgrade the kernel after

    installing. I did it the other day using one of the

    pre-packaged kernels, all I had to type was

    apt-get install kernel-image-2.4.12-powerpc

    which is not much longer than 'make it so'. I also

    had to update my boot configuration - naturally.

    [ Reply ]


    I wish they would update the kernel! (Score: 1)
    by ironstorm on Tuesday, December 04 @ 19:14:23 GMT
    (User Info)

    It's unfortuante that they will staying with

    the 2.2.x kernel...

    I tried to install Debian on a 1GHz AMD the

    other day and that kernel 2.2.19 wouldn't boot.

    I'd much rather see a 2.4.x kernel with 3

    optional driver disks... So I could load Deb

    on my ATA-100-RAID system or my buddies AMD.

    -Ironstorm

    [ Reply ]


    Report that bug! (Score: 1)
    by Crag on Saturday, December 08 @ 07:30:15 GMT
    (User Info)

    If 2.2.19 won't boot on a machine that 2.4.x will, it may be a bug. 2.2 and even 2.0 are still maintained, and bug reports are welcome.

    [ Reply ]


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