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    Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Submitted by dopey on Monday, March 25, 2002 – 09:03
    The Debian Project Leader debate took place on IRC recently. Matt “dopey” Hope has provided a copy of the IRC logs, available here. Thanks dopey, and good luck to all of the contenders.

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    Subject: If you don’t have time to read through the irc logs
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 01:17

    Yahoo! Linux News
    has condensed coverage of the main arguments.
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: mbucc
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 15:14
    Thanks for posting this info, it was an interesting read.

    I think this election is an important one. The “business model” for Debian is the one that started the Open Source explosion–that is, people programming because they have a passion to do things better. Free Software allows this passion free reign because you know your work will never be subverted by some corporate giant.

    I don’t see the service, support and consulting (and maybe hardware) business model lends itself to building a quality GNU/Linux distribution. Their ultimate goal is to increase their return on investment, and creating Free Software has a very low ROI.

    So, I see Debian getting stronger as time goes by. The key to a vigorous growth is that the Debian members continue to motive programmers and writers to contribute their precious spare time.

    I enourage Debian developers to evaluate the candidates in terms of how well they will encourage and motivate volunteers. In this aspect, I found bdale’s response about dormant developers most hopeful–he wanted to look at the root causes rather than define a system for when a developer loses their priveledges.

    Here’s an example of what Debian looks like to this outsider. At Linux Expo in NYC, Joey Hess told me that a good way to get started is to work on man pages. Ok, so I look at www.debian.org but can’t immediately see where I click if I want to help write a man page. Oh yeah, the 26 link the left bar is Help Debian. The second sentence on that page is “we are generally looking for new developers.” I’m very comfortable writing technical documentation, but I’m still learning GNU/Linux, so I’m not sure I’m qualified! Pushing on, I click on Work-Needing and Prospective Packages. A quick scan doesn’t show anything about man pages. At this point, I give up.

    Debian’s strength is its volunteers, and I hope the next leader works on making it easier for potential volunteers to contribute–perhaps by adding another level so a newcomer has a smoother onramp to becoming a member of the Debian community.

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 19:08
    I’m pretty sure that I also pointed you at http://qa.debian.org/ , which has a list of packages that need man pages first thing on the left-hand column.

    — joeyh

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: mbucc
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 20:59
    Yep, you did. A month later I couldn’t remember what you told me and I couldn’t quickly figure it out from www.debian.org.

    It’s probably there–I just didn’t take enough time. Maybe that’s the intent–to filter out people without enough motivation. 🙂

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/06 – 18:23
    A prominent “Help Needed” section on the home page has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is, motivated ppl quicker (and more often) get penetrated and see what needs to be done. On the other hand, it is know to generate a lot of volunteer help offers which then trickle away. So the person in charge of spreading the work will be havyly loaded.

    It is not sure for me, what is better, but perhaps for the future of debian it is important to invest some time in finding serious new volunteers.

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 22:48
    perhaps you could find what you’re looking for
    here:
    http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net

    We write documentation and package it (see package “newbiedoc”). It’s oriented towards ‘newbies’ but the word’s taken with a broad meaning (the most read doc, I think is ‘Compiling kernels the Debian way’ 🙂

    Come and take a look one day !

    Bye,
    Romain, always looking for new talents 🙂

    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 10:19
    One thing i notice just looking at the first question of pulbicity.

    Well one way to get some nice free publicity is to release more often. When a new version of a distro comes out tons of websites review it and this generates a lot of free publicity. Sure this isn’t going to match someone like Redhat or Suse with the advertising budget, but at least it could put debian on the radar of people who don’t frequent irc or usenet.

    Debian is pretty good, no reason it wouldn’t get good reviews…well as long as it’s sort of up to date package wise, and the installer is decent, reviewers always focus on the installer…of the total time you use a distro you probably spend .01% of that installing it, but for a while i think installer ease is going to remain some kind of benchmark…

    but anyways, one way to get a bunch of free press is to release more often! People aren’t going to review debian again just for kicks and hahas they need a reason, mainly a new version. With the commercial distros and even the bsds releasing around every 6 months or so they are always getting reviewed and this keeps their names in peoples minds, but debian, well debian has awesome word of mouth but thats about it.

    Of course “just release more often” is much easier said than done, but hey, it would help publicity wise not to mention many other ways…

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/03/30 – 10:18
    My boss says “Be quick, not best.” That’s what the commercial distros do. Debian has been allways on the “Be best, not quick” side. That’s what Debian is known for. Quality. Don’t fall back to buzzword marketing and enduser begging. You can’t outperform RH and the like in that discipline.

    – anon

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 22:03
    The difference between us and, say, RedHat is that RH have committed to releasing once every 6 months. We release when we have something good.
    Our reputation is built on releasing stuff that is *good* … no, the best. Absolutely rock-solid. There are already many vendors who just pump out shit regularly; I, for one, don’t want to see Debian join that club. Slow is better than shit.
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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/03/29 – 05:20
    The difference between us and, say, RedHat is that RH have committed to releasing once every 6 months. We release when we have something good.

    Our reputation is built on releasing stuff that is *good* … no, the best. Absolutely rock-solid. There are already many vendors who just pump out shit regularly; I, for one, don’t want to see Debian join that club. Slow is better than shit.

    I’m not sure i buy this arguement. Basically what you are saying is “Well if Redhat can’t do it, there’s no way we can”.

    OpenBSD releases every 6 months and they have to do kernel development, auditing, porting and packaging…all debian has to do is packaging. So i really don’t buy this excuse.

    Also i would say outside of the “true beleivers” of debian it’s reputation is becoming known for being old…no, the oldest.

    The thing the turns me off the most from debian is all the fud coming out of the debian community. When people say Redhat is just total shit and it sucks, that’s just not being realistic, in fact it’s fud. Same with people who bash solaris or irix or whatever. The commercial unixes are more stable and robust than linux and it’s a fact, so when i hear people saying solaris is shit and irix blows, well that’s just zealotry. That’s the same as some islamic extemist saying jews blow and christianity sucks. That kind of stuff is just a turn off to businesses. Sure you can say “well we don’t care about businesses, they suck” well mmm ok, but then why is getting debian publicity an election issue?

    Basically, Answering critisizm about debians sloth-like release schedule with “redhat sux0rz” isn’t gonna cut it outside of the zealot crowd.

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    Subject: Release Cycle
    Author: eckes
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 09:18
    Releasing when you have something good does not mean, that what is released is (still) good.

    Having an outdated stable system forces users to use testing distribution and that ruins the debian reputation

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    Subject: Re: Release Cycle
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/03/28 – 18:08
    This quote cracked me up. From http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/03/28/1656233.shtml?tid=23

    I guess RedHat is catching on to the wisom of long release cycles … 🙂

    ‘De Visser explains the logic for this is that independent software vendors are sick and tired of trying to keep up with Linux distributions’ six- to eight-month cycles and want a stable platform for their applications. In the enterprise market, where rock-solid, yet complex, applications are the rule rather than the exception, Red Hat believes this will lead more enterprise ISVs such as Oracle, SAP and Veritas to work more closely with RHLAS. Quandt agrees, saying that the move is “very smart.”‘

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    Subject: Re: Release Cycle
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 18:28
    Having an outdated stable system forces users to use testing distribution

    No.

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    Subject: Re: Release Cycle
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/06 – 18:18
    We should check the results of PopCon, how many ppl are still using a pure stable system. I dont think there are many. I regularly feel forced to switch to testing on servers. Especially if those contain web applications (phpnuke, bugzille, webcvs) or if I need stuff ike LDAP, Samba or even Java.

    I mean I realy wonder who is still using stable. Developers (largest user base) sure run most of the time testing boxes. Desktops needing KDE or Gnome need to upgrade every now and then to be useable..

    -eckes

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    Subject: Re: Release Cycle
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/03/29 – 05:01
    Well that’s a persuasive arguement, i’m convinced…
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 11:04
    Well…, I plan on doing my humble part. There has been a renewed interest in Debian and also Linux in general. Since we reviewed Libranet Debian at Extremetech, the whole question of Debian as a choice has come up once again. Also a good article in the March issue of Linux Mag helped a lot. It’s not only the APT apps that make it attractive to the end user. There’s the question of philosophy too… and stability. I am sure I am not the only one who, while using strictly commercial distros in the past, who felt more like a beta tester for glitchware than a user of a task oriented operating system. I am working on another review of Debian at this moment. Hopefully, some good will come of it. And yes, every time I write about Debian, I mention the installation procedure, trying my best to explain that it’s nothing to worry about because “you only need it once.”
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/03/25 – 19:47
    Branden as a DPL would not be very smart imo. He has shown more than once over mailinglists and IRC that he cannot take criticism and he acts like a jerk if you dont know him. He flames away greatly on several lists. I’m pretty sure he *could* do the job as DPL technically but he has just not shown the maturity to lead Debian.

    But thats just my not so humble opinion.

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Joy
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 14:34
    First of all, the way someone takes criticism has very little to do with how they would perform as DPL, because Debian leaders never really make big decisions based on their sole judgement. Any DPL that would try to do that would not last too long.

    In this particular case, to say that Branden doesn’t take any criticism is just blatant FUD, because I have been involved in more than a few discussions/arguments with him, and more than a few times it ended with him understanding my argument. And sometimes I was wrong. You merely need to clearly state your reasoning, which is not something most people are particularly good at.

    Besides, the developers could have seen how Branden works with the people who contact him as the SPI treasurer. He was professional and benevolent in every last one of these correspondences. Considering this position (arguably) brings even more responsibility than the one of the DPL, the only reason to believe he would do anything differently as the DPL would be paranoia.

    Frankly, your attitude sucks. You concentrate on attacking the candidate that you feel is worst, and say nothing about the others. In the real world, and the people who do what you did usually end up being secret supporters of another candidate.

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 17:34
    Yes, I am a supporter of another candidate. Isnt it obvious? Whats the big deal? I just dont feel Branden is “mature” enough, and thats from my personal experience with him. I “attack” Branden in the word you put it because he’s the only one I dont want to see as a DPL. I would be quite comfortable with both Bdale and Raphael as DPLs.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 22:33
    > I would be quite comfortable with both Bdale and Raphael as DPLs.

    Sorry, but there’s only one DPL, you’ll have to take your pick 🙂

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 23:30
    Yes I know that. What I meant was either Bdale or Raphael. 😛

    Typ-O-mania.

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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: eckes
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 09:16
    Actually what is wrong with beeing a supporter of a candidate?
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Joy
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/03/27 – 22:15
    The thing I was saying was wrong was anti-other-candidate FUDing.
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    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 07:51
    I’m not sure DPL is so much a technical position, which may relegate some of his so-called qualifications. Otherwise, I agree, and then some. It seems Branden is the only candidate who is so brash and has faced so much criticism for his demeanor and I can’t help but wonder what excuse he would come up with to explain that. He can be pretty evasive, so I wouldn’t expect much. That’s really the problem with Branden, the attitude.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Debian Project Leader Election Debate..
    Author: eckes
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/03/26 – 05:17
    Well, perhaps Brandon can change. I wonder what he wanted to tell us with Bug #131997. I mean given the fact that he pre recorded his final statement in the irc discussion, the Bug he looked up to proof what good guy he is only contains one outgoing email and no answer directed to him. So of course it is easy not to insult somebody.
    [ Please login, or register ]

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