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    GNOME 2.6 in Sarge?
    Submitted by Narayan on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 – 14:46
    SargeThe planned release date for GNOME 2.6 is March 22nd, just around the corner. However at the current rate it is unlikely that Sarge will include GNOME 2.6, which would be a pity. I wonder if there is strong enough feeling within the Debian community about this, to delay the release, especially as KDE 3.2 has gotten in.
    Category: Opinion

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    Subject: Stability comes with test!
    Author: afmedina
    Date: Thursday, 2004/04/15 – 05:31
    I think that stability comes with test. So, the point is that experimental or unstable versions of Gnome 2.6 (or even Kernel 2.6.etc) must be ok to use by the comunity who wants to test and help finding bugs.

    Sarge must be THE STABLE.

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    Subject: For those that want to try it out.
    Author: gid
    Date: Tuesday, 2004/04/13 – 05:08
    edit /etc/apt/sources.list, add: (replace xy with your country)
    deb http://ftp.xy.debian.org/debian/ ../project/experimental main

    apt-get update
    apt-get remove libgtop2
    (work around a conflict with the new libgtop2-2 package)
    apt-get install -t experimental gnome-desktop-environment

    That’s it. I’ve tried it out on two different machines so far, it even fixed a few annoying bugs I was having with 2.4.x. But beware, this is experimental, and it may make your computer explode/implode.

    My impressions so far:
    – Nautilus is FAST, mind bogglingly fast.
    – you can _finally_ re-associate image files to open up with gqview for easy browsing. (gthumb is broken)
    – the computer icon is cool, double click the cdrom, it’s automounts it and opens it up a folder displaying the CD’s contents, finally very nice and easy
    – the network neighboorhood is very nice as well

    Although one scary thing. I browsed the network neighborhood, opened up a folder on my server, it prompted me for my username/pass. As I really didn’t want to mount it, I hit cancel, it mounted it ANYWAY, without requiring my username/pass. That’s really weird, I don’t know if it’s acting that way because I just rebooted from XP not too long ago that had that same samba share opened.

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    Subject: Owen Taylor is reporting an
    Author: DarthAggie
    Date: Tuesday, 2004/03/23 – 23:53
    Owen Taylor is reporting an intrusion on www.gnome.org in an email dated Tuesday, 23 Mar 2004 13:52:28 -0500.

    Looks like 2.6 will not ship with the next stable release, if they have to go and do a code review.

    If the link don’t work:

    I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.

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    Subject: Gnome CVS
    Author: nav
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/24 – 03:42
    GNOME’s CVS is hosted seperately from the rest of their website and such (according to Alan Cox who, as we all know, has ties with Red Hat due to his earlier employment there, and Red Hat run GNOME’s servers). It’s unlikely anything could have happened to the code. It’ll likely be relatively easy to check it against a trusted archive of a recent 2.6 RC release. Still, some precaution is always a good thing in my opinion.
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    Subject: Re: Owen Taylor is reporting an
    Author: calc
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/24 – 02:39
    Don’t underestimate the time it will take to release sarge, if it happens this year it will be great.
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    Subject: Re: Don’t underestimate the time it will take to release sarge
    Author: howama
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/24 – 08:38
    Sarge will release and it will release soon. The reason it gets delayed is because people like you spread fud like this. All Debian developers should be concentrating on getting their packages in top notch condition ready for sarge. If we all did, everything would be fine. But we don’t – everyone discusses getting their favourite packages into sid instead. I wish we could just have normal freezes then everybody would know where they stand.
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    Subject: Re: Don’t underestimate the time it will take to release sarge
    Author: calc
    Date: Tuesday, 2004/03/30 – 03:15
    Debian will at soonest release in June, just read the announcements to d-d-a, and that assumes everything goes smoothly. Now whether sarge+1 takes another 2 years to release or if finally finishing debian-installer fixes the long release cycles remains to be seen.
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    Subject: is newer always better?
    Author: thekernel32
    Date: Monday, 2004/03/22 – 23:27
    According to `dpkg -l |grep gnome` I’m still running gnome 1.4. I recall trying a gnome 2.2 from unstable, but I found it just didn’t feel right because I just couldn’t get the desktop to behave the way it did before. I downgraded back to stable and decided to wait it out for another stable relase. (Here is where the package manager shines: I removed and reinstalled all of my desktop packages without interrupting my HTTP,LDAP,and SMB services that were running)

    I often feel that more important than adding features is maintaining the current features and usability so that when someone upgrades they aren’t left saying “but the old version did this so much better…”.

    Is Gnome 2.6 all that it’s cracked up to be? Or are we chasing version numbers because they are in front of us?

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    Subject: Old news
    Author: robot101
    Date: Tuesday, 2004/03/23 – 02:43
    The GNOME1.x -> GNOME 2.x upgrade is a huge one, and you’re simply not going to get these features back in any later versions of GNOME. GNOME has changed its philosophy to echo that of UNIX… each component does very little, but does so in a sensible, reliable and uncomplicated way. Part of this was removing excessive preferences and a variety of cosmetic functionality, in favour of fewer preferences and “no crack” sensible defaults and working behaviour. I have probably represented this point of view poorly, but I agree with Havoc Pennington who is a proponent of this approach. My desktop has become a lot faster, simpler, better looking and reliable since switching to GNOME 2.

    GNOME 2.6 isn’t cracked up to be anything other than an evolution of GNOME 2.4, a continuation with the same design philosophy – it won’t bring back your pet feature from GNOME 1.4. As such, I don’t think it’s worth delaying Debian’s stable release to appease people who want the latest version number – these people will not be the people who run sarge when it releases. For those who do, GNOME 2.4 works fine and will continue to do so when 2.6 is out.


    Robster is a monkey

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    Subject: Debian is very interesting for people like me
    Author: xutopia
    Date: Friday, 2004/03/19 – 19:10
    Who are frustrated with updates and want soemthing like apt-get to ease things for him. But I’m not going to be using Debian it if it doesn’t come with Gnome 2.6.
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    Subject: Use testing
    Author: sunfire
    Date: Monday, 2004/03/22 – 17:32
    The stable version is very important, since it allows one to set up a system which will be reliable and secure for a long time with a minimum of administration work.

    However, if you plan to use Debian on your desktop you can always go with testing.

    I’ve tried quite a lot of different linux distros now, and I’ve found that the boxes with the latest software tend to be about as stable as Debian testing. I’ve run testing for a long time myself, and never had any problems with it.

    Currently I’m running unstable and enjoy the very latest software. It works quite well, but you’ve to deal with brocken packages, nasty bugs or even a broken system sometimes. I think I’ll switch back to testing soon 🙂

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    Subject: Not using Debian because stab
    Author: benh
    Date: Friday, 2004/03/19 – 21:00
    Not using Debian because stable doesn’t come with a bleeding edge package is like not using RH Enterprise for that reason. Notice how all of the distros that provide the latest versions of packages available at the time of their release are nowhere near as stable as Debian stable is.

    If you really like Debian for apt-get and other features, just install stable and use backports for whatever packages you want to see updated or just pin testing and unstable as desired.

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    Subject: seperate release for desktop updates?
    Author: thore
    Date: Friday, 2004/03/19 – 15:25
    It takes a lot of work to create a new release of Debian. Mainly because we have to rely on volunteers, all the platforms have to be supported and everything has to be stable. I am glad and surprised that somehow it has always worked.
    But in the past I used Debian for servers and terminal servers and for my personal desktop only. With Linux becoming a more serious desktop contender and speeding up, I think the server and the desktop are getting out of sync.
    Here’s the conflict: I like my base system to be stable and easily maintainable. And at the same time I (and the users) want to have the latest desktop and apps (loyal backports.org user).
    A possible solution would maybe be to split the the Debian in two parts. The base system / server part, and the desktop / apps part. We could stay with the longer releases for the server, no changs there. And we could do 6 month releases purely on the desktop part.

    Just my 2 cents

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    Subject: It’s already there
    Author: gebner
    Date: Saturday, 2004/03/20 – 17:50
    What you’re describing is already being done. Debian has a stable (server), a testing and an unstable branch (desktop).

    The only thing missing (from what you’re describing) would be unstable snapshots every 6 months.

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    Subject: Testing doesn’t get security
    Author: andrel
    Date: Saturday, 2004/03/20 – 18:29
    Testing doesn’t get security updates. And unless a freeze is imminent (as is the case now) testing is usually wedged by glibc and other library issues, so fixes take literally years to move in from Unstable. Testing is for getting new releases out the door, not running on the desktop. And Sid isn’t the answer for non-technical users.
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    Subject: Wise words…
    Author: robster
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 22:47
    Jeff Waugh has spoken.

    Rob ‘robster’ Bradford
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    Subject: 2.4.x fits better than 2.6.0
    Author: pier
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 21:39
    As a Woody and GNOME 1.4.0 user, here’s my vision : “stable” is about well-tested, long-used packages like GNOME 2.4.x and KDE 3.1.5. Stable is for people who needs stability before everything else. If someone prefers being up-to-date, he should consider running testing or unstable. My opinion.
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    Subject: NO!
    Author: DrCrane
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 13:28
    I’d really like to see a sarge release soon. If people keep asking for their pet apps to be added then it will never get released. If gnome 2.6 filters completely through the system and works it’s way into testing (through the natural order) then so be it. If not, such is life.

    As soon as sarge is released apps will be “out of date” that is the nature of a stable release. For desktop applications it is nice to have the latest stuff since so much progress is being made by the various camps but there are lots of choices:

    • run the testing release
    • download from repositories other than Debian. For example, KDE has excellent and very easy to install packages (using apt) from links on http://www.kde.org/ … I would assume that there are similar packaging efforts for Gnome.
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    Subject: It doesn’t matter
    Author: annoia
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 10:00
    With the release cycle of Debian it doesn’t really matter whether we have the newest or fluffiest window manager in a release. What matters is that what we have is stable, coherent and that it works.

    In half a year (or a whole for that matter) Gnome 2.6 will probably be regarded as outdated and old, and it wouldn’t matter if 2.6 were there or not. What DOES matter is that the entire system is stable and tested, which we (hopfully?) won’t have time to do with 2.6.

    So I vote for whatever is stable. Don’t rush 2.6, but if it’s as stable as 2.4, and have moved naturally into testing, then let’s add it! 🙂

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    Subject: Kind of short-sighted
    Author: benh
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 01:22
    By the time GNOME 2.6 reaches a satisfactory level of stablity to be considered stable, as 2.4 evidently has since its release six months ago, GNOME 2.8 would be released and we would be left saying, “Should sarge be delayed from going stable in order to include GNOME 2.8?”
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    Subject: Kernel 2.6 and Gnome 2.6
    Author: maceto
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 07:30
    Well this is the story about the egg and the chicken.
    Kernel 2.6.5 should probably go in there ( soon to come).
    And this is where the egg/chicken comes in. As 2-> and 2.4-> were somewhat unstable I understand debian not “jumping” up a version e.g 2.4.19 etc. But since kernel now is so stable should the kernel not be updated vs backported. e.g selinux patches is hard to backport etc. This has to be considered!!

    Gnome 2.6 is that more stable than 2.4? agian the chicken/egg. Should one still ( as the software has developed so much) consider old- more stable? (old=more tested) or has some of the bugs found in debian testing been included into gnome 2.6? etc.

    I am not saying hey let`s go fedora, but in some ways the backporting needs to be looked at, and that`s why I say Gnome 2.6 and kernel 2.6 should be in there.

    Or one can do a “mandrake” Sarge 4 with kernel 2.4, with kernel 2.6 as a choice ( since a bit unstable yet) and gnome 2.4.2 as default and gnome 2.6 a choice, and MARK em as testing for Sarge 4.1 and release that some time after.

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    Subject: Unless the changes/additions
    Author: benh
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 09:10
    Unless the changes/additions to GNOME 2.6 are significantly greater than what have been occuring between 2.0-2.2 and 2.2-2.4, it would seem that delaying the release in favor of it would be pretty silly, as the timelines seem to sync up so that we would be in the exact same spot in 6 months were Debian to hold off. I can understand stalling the release in favor of KDE 3.2 to some degree, though it has yet to enter sid at this point and the wait may simply be far too long.

    Is running testing really that bad? I think most of us run it or sid with few if any problems.

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    Subject: well…
    Author: Dmitry
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 20:54
    Hey gang,

    Actually, who cares whether Gnome 2.6 or KDE 3.2 will be included or not? It does not matter, the point is – debian should make releases more often (I would say 1-2 a year is quite reasonable, as obsd folks do). For stable you can get kde or gnome from their home sites anyway.
    Personally, I am more than happy with fvwm, and all this funky junky desktop GUIs are none of my interest.

    ps: just my opinion, no offence though…


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    Subject: Debian release cyles are just fine
    Author: sgbirch
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 12:34
    No offense taken.

    But please don’t take offense it the counter position.

    I am responsible for quite a large number of machines on which reliability is crucial. I moved from SuSE to Debian because SuSE was releasing 3 times a year and the upgrade cycle was driving me crazy, a release of VERY STABLE CODE every 18 months or so is perfect. I don’t want to be upgrading the machines every few months – it simply isn’t necessary or constructive.

    Please don’t change the way the Debian project works … it isn’t broken!


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    Subject: Hear hear!
    Author: hazelsct
    Date: Tuesday, 2004/04/06 – 18:30
    I agree with you completely. My research group has been running Woody with GNOME 1.4 on our desktops since about a month before release, and we’ve been very happy with the stability and security maintenance. (Well, mostly happy, we have put up our own aptable archive with fixes for little annoying bugs, and have been using patched mozilla 1.2 because the security team refuses to let it in to fix years-old holes.)

    Debian released woody when GNOME 1 was very stable, and now can release sarge when GNOME 2 is very stable. IMHO, that will mean GNOME 2.6 as it’s more mature than 2.4, though I do think the GNOME maintainers are doing the right thing to put it in experimental first in case sarge really does release soon.

    The point being, I agree completely that 4- or 6-month release cycles are not always the best thing for those of us with large installations because of upgrade costs, or with non-power users because of retraining costs. Let Debian release a rock-solid stable distribution every one to two years, as we’ve been doing, and let the power users do testing, Fedora, SuSE, or whatever.

    -Adam P.

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    Subject: Exactly
    Author: benh
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 15:41
    For people who want to run the latest bleeding edge software, there are distributions like SUSE and Fedora, as well as scores of others.

    Also, given that Debian is the only serious Linux server platform (IMHO of course), they should be, if anything, even more conservative.

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    Subject: stability
    Author: wouter@jabber.org
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 20:03
    2.6.0 might not be as stable as 2.4.x, which has had some bugfix releases.

    Well, I run unstable on desktop machines, so I don’t really care.

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    Subject: My humble opinion would be th
    Author: smurfd
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 18:43
    My humble opinion would be that sure Gnome 2.6 would be great!

    BUT, what about that debian-desktop-cd project? why not release sarge the way it is, and then add gnome 2.6 to that cd.
    Since the Desktop managers and windowmanagers are the parts where versions might be most important.

    Since, i guess that half of us use Debian as a server, if not more, and for those the versions of wm/dm doesnt matter that much.

    As i said, only My humble opinion.

    / smurfd

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    Subject: don’t wait!
    Author: katakombi
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 18:32
    Altough I think the quality of Debian is only possible because of
    those relatively infrequent major releases, I’d rather release than
    Anyone who wants to use the latest DEs can easily grab the necessary packages from unstable/testing!
    This is – in my opinion not weakening your stable install, sinceonly certain packages are unstable (and it’s dependancies).

    But great benefits of a new stable release like the new debian installer should be released ASAP!

    Even without KDE/Gnome it’ll get ’til summer 04 – educated guess >8^)

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    Subject: To many libs
    Author: daw
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 08:14
    Gnome depends on X, glibc and other important libraries. To install those packages from stable is weakening the stable install.
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    Subject: It needs to be there
    Author: snaga
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 17:46
    IMO, Gnome 2.6 needs to be in Sarge when it releases. Unless there is some compelling reason to leave it out, I think Sarge needs to be as up to date as it can be, as we all know it won’t be in a few months.
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    Subject: Maturity..
    Author: ploum
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 17:41
    I think that Gnome 2.6 is really more mature and more usable than 2.4.

    Debian stable with gnome 2.6 can be a really powerful desktop for more than one year, two year.

    I will really appreciate if I can install a stable debian for newbies, instead of a sarge/sid mix, with a lot of others source.

    Please, do it ! I will send as many bugs reports as I can in order to achieve this goal !

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    Subject: kde3.2 in sarge ?
    Author: freelsjd
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 16:11
    I thought I heard that 3.1.5 was going into Sarge. Kde 3.2 was just released into Sid, and it still has many bugs.
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    Subject: Re: kde3.2 in sarge ?
    Author: calc
    Date: Sunday, 2004/03/21 – 09:53
    KDE 3.2.1 will probably go into sarge in a few weeks, all the current RC bugs I know of are easily fixable with the next upload. I have been waiting on XFree86 4.3 to build on all arches since KDE 3.2 depends on it.
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    Subject: In sync with the world
    Author: sabin
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 16:04
    In my opinion, if we could include gnome 2.6 and kernel 2.6 into sarge then we would finally release an up-to-date stable debian.
    I’ve only been using debian since potato but I do beleive that has never happened.
    I’m not sure how much the debian comunity wants to be competitive or how much people that use stable want to be in sync with the world but I sure would enjoy installing a stable distribution that I don’t need to update from sid.

    – Sabin

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    Subject: The problem with this is wher
    Author: Integral
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 17:57
    The problem with this is where do you stop? Just about every month SOME important project releases a major new version. If we hold up each Debian release for every upstream version that someone can’t live without, we’ll take years for each … umm … well, you see the point. The only real solution to this problem is for Debian to release faster, so people don’t feel so pressured to squeeze new upstream releases into stable immediately.


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    Subject: Sarge will never get released…
    Author: abo
    Date: Friday, 2004/03/26 – 00:57
    Debian has become to big to ever be released. As you say, there are so many things in Debian now that there will _always_ be something to hold it up or set it back. It is not possible to assemble together so many constantly changing, interdependant pieces into a coherent whole.

    In some ways it won’t matter… testing’s automatic selection of bug-report free and dependency complete packages from unstable is probably going to be good enough. However, even testing has its problems… the main one being security updates.

    The only way a “stable” debian is ever going to be released again is a radical restructure, breaking it up into manageable parts. That way a “debian-core” could be released as “stable” on it’s own timetable, and other parts such as “debian-gnome” could also be released and updated on their own time.


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    Subject: WHAT?
    Author: sabin
    Date: Friday, 2004/03/26 – 15:48
    Do you work for Debian?
    People out there are working everyday to get closer to releasing Sarge.
    How can you ignore the community’s efforts?

    Of course there will always be things to hold up the release of the stable branch.
    That’s what all these comments are about: the fact that unfortunately debian will not include everything that might be released soon.

    The whole point is that Sarge WILL release and that for that to happen some sacrifices have to be made.

    “Debian has become to big to ever be released” -> How can you say that when the whole point of what we’re talking about here is that Sarge WILL release?

    – Sabin

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    Subject: Re: WHAT?
    Author: calc
    Date: Tuesday, 2004/03/30 – 03:12
    Well to be sure Sarge will eventually release. At present it looks like Sarge will not release until at least June possibly later, which is 2 years after the Woody release. Also, with bugs not being tracked by version in bts yet there is still no guarantee that it will be even close to bugfree, since uploads fixing bugs in sid currently completely close the bug reports. And no things do not migrate from sid at reasonable rates most of the time, most of the time large chunks of the archive are held up by various issues due the massive intertwining dependencies. IMHO the bts changes should have been finalized before the testing system was even implemented.
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    Subject: Just about every month SOM
    Author: grolschie
    Date: Monday, 2004/03/22 – 09:14
    Just about every month SOME important project releases a major new version.

    Exactly. I wish other projects would hold of releasing so damn often. I mean every other week there is a new version of KDE, etc. I mean, keep working on them as per usual, but release less often. Most dists are out of date within about 3-6 months, it’s not just Debian stable. I’d be gutted if I were to buy say SuSE, only to have to upgrade a few months later, and have to pay for it.

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    Subject: Re: Just about every month SOM
    Author: calc
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/24 – 02:36
    Most other distributions release every 6 months. So they average being out of date by 3 months. Debian releases about every 2 years so its on average 1 year out of date… 😉 Also, KDE does not release new versions very often. They release bug fixes releases about every 4-6 weeks. But the real new releases KDE 3.1 vs KDE 3.2 don’t happen very often. Lately KDE releases have been getting slower 3.2 was released over a year after 3.1, it seems to be getting slower like Debian. 8(

    The following is the list of all major KDE releases since 1.0:

    KDE 1.0 – Jul 12, 1998
    KDE 1.1 – Mar 4, 1999 ( 8 mo)
    KDE 2.0 – Oct 23, 2000 ( 7 mo)
    KDE 2.1 – Feb 26, 2001 ( 4 mo)
    KDE 2.2 – Aug 15, 2001 ( 6 mo)
    KDE 3.0 – Apr 3, 2002 ( 8 mo)
    KDE 3.1 – Jan 28, 2003 ( 9 mo)
    KDE 3.2 – Feb 3, 2004 (12 mo)

    The following is the list of all major Debian releases since 1.3 (when the news section was added on debian.org):

    Debian 1.3 – Jun 2, 1997
    Debian 2.0 – Jul 24, 1998 (12 mo ) hamm
    Debian 2.1 – Mar 9, 1999 ( 8 mo ) slink
    Debian 2.2 – Aug 15, 2000 (17 mo ) potato
    Debian 3.0 – Jul 19, 2002 (23 mo ) woody
    Debian 3.1 – ??? ??, 2004 (20 mo+) sarge

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    Subject: where to draw the line
    Author: Dave Morse
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 02:44
    I think the line should be drawn where its very hard to compile from source.

    For example: Mozilla, though I’ve got it exposed during 70% of my tube-time, should never hold up a debian release because is straightforward to d/l and compile.

    Similarly with the linux kernel. Its just a snap to change.

    Not so Gnome/KDE/g++.

    Okay, there’s your line. Now tell me why I’m wrong. 🙂

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    Subject: The Kernel?
    Author: sabin
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 03:35
    You sure u meant to say that. I for one don’t consider the Linux Kernel a snap to change.
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    Subject: i mean it (if he didn’t)
    Author: undefined
    Date: Tuesday, 2004/03/23 – 21:04
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    Subject: Re: The Kernel?
    Author: clacke
    Date: Thursday, 2004/03/18 – 06:22
    He meant it.

    $ sudo apt-get install kernel-image-2.6.3-1-k7

    Works like a charm. 2.6.0 didn’t, but hey, give them some time.

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    Subject: You make a good point
    Author: sabin
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 19:31
    I agree that it’s hard to set those limits. However I do think that GNOME 2.6 is a stable branch so the wait wouldn’t be too much to include it in the stable branch of Debian.
    Best thing would be if GNOME 2.6.3 or 2.6.4 or so come out in time for sarge (which won’t happen most probably). That would be good as those are usually the ones that fix the major bugs.

    So yeah, in the end I agree with you that GNOME is separate and we shouldn’t hold up the release process just because they are putting out a major version.

    I just thought it would be interesting if sarge would come with a latest desktop. Not as in “wait for the desktop” but as in “the desktop happens to come out in time to be included”.

    I guess I don’t know much about the debian projected timeline which is why I thought GNOME might come out in time.

    Either way Sarge is going to be great!
    I can’t wait, even though I use sid, I usually install from scratch when a stable comes out and then upgrade. You know to get rid of all sorts of very old leftovers and of course to give Stable a try for a short while.

    Anyways to all of those of you that actually work in creating the great beast that is Debian CHEERS you’ve been doing great work for years and after sarge that will be even more obvious.

    – Sabin

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    Subject: GNOME 2.6 in Sarge
    Author: zatoichi
    Date: Wednesday, 2004/03/17 – 15:51
    I am not quite in the Debian camp. I am currently searching for a new PC to go Linux only (Debian is where I am leaning). It would be nice of them if they did include GNOME 2.6 in Sarge.
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