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    KDE 3.0
    Submitted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 – 07:20
    KDE 3 is not in Debian. KDE will not be in sid itself until XFree86 4.2 is, but will be available for testing before then.
    If you don’t like this, don’t post abusively. The packager (not me now) has exams in 2 weeks. You can make your own KDE 3 debs and distribute them to the world. Either that, or you might want to consider actually paying the developer.

    Joy: Annoyance expressed in the above message is a trademark of The Debian Maintainers of Large Package Suites. πŸ˜‰
    Just in case you wondered, DanielS posted this after reading two news submissions for the site that included a fair amount of swearing about not having KDE 3 packages. So if you’re just a normal user, please accept our apologies for making it sound as if you did something wrong.
    It is true that site editors shouldn’t be allowed to rant too much, and I can say that we will try to contain DanielS from further outbursts <shrug> And this article won’t be deleted because a bunch of trolls will then invade the other stories and blame us for censorship ;-p

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    Subject: KDE????
    Author: medic32
    Date: Thursday, 2005/03/24 – 03:55
    I installed Debian 3 on my machine and after I log in I want to get into the KDE desktop.How do you do it???
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re:
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/30 – 18:38
    For those of you that just NEED kde3 and aren’t willing to fret, these are your options. No more complaining, these are your only choices:

    Get the experiemntal packages WhizNDR put up. The only problem with taking rpms and aliening them into Debian is RedHat/SuSe/Mandrake’s whacked-out library version numbering (or our whacked-out numbering?). WhizNDR doesn’t advise dpkg-ing them, so they’re basically glorified binary packages. Whee.

    SuSe 7.3 and 8.0 KDE3 rpms unpack into /opt/kde3 like Whiz’s, and unlike Debian’s stock KDE, so that’s good if you need something Whiz left out (Koffice).

    They have source code. You have Linux. Leave a few over-night’s for compiling. My poor laptop did it. Use the compiler God gave you!

    And if all of this is too difficult, 1) Shove it, 2) Get Mandrake. What the heck are you doing on Debian if you can’t handle some creative package-manipulation and a few symlinks?, or 3) Wait.

    I love 3…

    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 20:55
    Well listen up folks. I got sick of listening to all this whining and finger pointing, so I decided to compile KDE 3.0 myself. It is defiantely easy to do, if a little bit tedious. It also takes quite a while. However I have kde3 isntalled and let’s just say, it’s no where near ready to be stable. It crashes on startup and takes up a huge amount of memory (I mean 10 Megs for a console window?!!! you’ve got to be kidding me). It’s also slow and spits out a ton of error messages as it runs. All in all definately not ready for stable. Or even half stable. I could see putting it in unstable, but it’s not worth all this whining and complaning. Stick with KDE2. I didn’t knotice any wonderful new things I just had to have. On the other hand, all this flaming over kde does provide a sort of internet based Jerry Springer entertainment.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: OK, who has it working sweetly?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/05/02 – 10:16
    If this is you, please consider packaging into debs for us lamerz. Did you also need X 4.2? If so, that’d be nice too. 10Q very much! :-)~
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: hackel
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 23:32
    You’re obviously missing something, because having run KDE for the last week, I have had absolutely no problems with it. It hasn’t crashed once, doesn’t spit out any weird error messages, and basically just -works-. I consider it to be a polished up version of 2.2.2–nothing much has changed on the outside, but inside things are cleaned up, polished, and it’s even more ready for prime-time.

    Next time you post an inflamatory message such as this, at least check with others to make sure your experiences aren’t limited to yourself.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/25 – 18:01
    Error messages are only seen when you start it off the command line. If you start it through X or another window manager, then all the error messages will be hidden in your .xsession-errors file.
    I don’t see why a user should consult with others before reporting his expirience with a package. And except for the opening words, I don’t see anything that could be considered inflamatory except possibly the fact that the post states the software doesn’t work well.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/25 – 07:46
    This “unstable” comment is definitely way off base. I installed kde3 from source a couple days ago on Corel Linux – can you believe it? It works friggin’ great, with no buggy behavior whatsoever. I only have a slight problem with jpeg’s; kuickshow & kview won’t show jpg’s. Konqueror will display them in its builtin viewer, but will not make thumbnails of jpg’s, only of all the other graphic files. This is not surprising considering I probably have several packages which are a little behind the stated dependency requirements.

    I agree that KDE3 is a cleaned up, improved version of KDE2. Konqueror, for one thing, is noticably faster. And I love the ability to choose settings, such as color schema, for the little command shell window at the bottom.

    It’s cool seeing the kde1-Corel versions of things running right next to their KDE3 versions! Doesn’t cause problems, they have excellent instructions.

    Anyway, here’s what I compiled & installed:
    arts-1.0.0
    kdebase-3.0
    kdegraphics-3.0
    kdelibs-3.0
    kdevelop-2.1_for_KDE_3.0
    qt-3.0.3

    Took about 6 hours including downloading everything, solving a few dependency problems, and taking my dogs for a walk while kdebase was compiling.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/05/03 – 16:10
    6 hours to build it all?? It takes 4 hours just to compile qt3 on my AMD K6/2 350 with 196 megs of ram.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/23 – 06:04
    I’ve read through about half the posts just for the entertainment factor but I just don’t understand what all the fuss is about……

    Why do you need somthing as cumbersom as KDE and embarass yourself moaning about how long it is taking for the package to be released.

    ……this is debian for gods sake

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/23 – 18:56
    I agree. I hardly use kde. Only use konqueror as a an alternate browswer to opera. I just wanted to compile it to see if it’s improved any. And when my fiends start complaing about how there’s no pretty user interface for linux, I can whip it up and say “here. See? Pretty, klunky interface that emulates windows look and feel so much it’s slow, a memory hog and crashes lots. Now let’s go back to a lean fast, simple GUI”.
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    Subject: compiling KDE 3.0 yourself is easy! But…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 07:06
    can be time consuming.

    Clear instructions on how to build from source yourself is provided at: http://www.kde.org/install-source.html

    I usually start by using apt-get to install the development packages that KDE 3.0 needs, such as openssl (well thats only if you configure KDE to use that), but I do. To build all the KDE packages took me a couple days, because I compiled each package one at a time and would leave the machine and come back later to continue the process. If I was in a hurry, I would’ve compiled the crucial packages 1st than compile and install the rest simultaneosly. This is my third time compiling KDE, my 1st was with KDE 2.1 and I never had a problem. I wouldn’t mind figuring out how to make deb packages for everyone, if this is too much work for some people or isn’t pratical. Than again the package maintaner will probably have it out by the time I get my own together and they know what they’re doing and I don’t think I wanna be an officia package maintaner yet.

    If people want the latest in software than maybe they should consider gentoo linux, which from what I’ve read sounds really cool!

    thats my .02

    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 09:54
    why is bibletime packaged kde-extras ?

    shouldn’t this be in kde-obscurantism ?

    I don’t want this on my hard disk !

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 08:42
    the fact is that I’m obliged to have it if
    I want kde-extras.

    I think that religeous software should be
    packaged apart for those who need it,
    like any other package group.

    Debian should not be used for creeping proselytism.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 04:06
    Get a grip son. It’s text. If you don’t want to read it no one is going to force you. Are you afraid Jesus is just going to jump out of your hard drive while you’re spanking the monkey to warezed porn? πŸ™‚
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 20:10
    Jesus certainly was master of social engineering but that won’t stop me from whipping his ass the same as any other intruder in my dwelling.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 10:38
    I could be your father, dumbass.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 17:30
    Nah, pops is smart enough to use WindowMaker.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/23 – 07:56
    I do usually.
    I was just checking out this new-fangled kde thing
    and acting as flamebait, because shoving religeon
    into kde-extras is just as bad as including a porn
    for kids running kde.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 19:56
    For goodness sakes. People will cry about anything. Just remove it.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 20:24
    Keep your religous crap out of debian you zealot.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 03:44
    Methinks thou doth protest too loudly.

    What part of my reply suggests I’m advocating religion – much less a zealot? If anyone is a fanatic it is you my friend.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 17:17
    I don’t care if you’re keen on jesus or mad about mohammed or whatever but i don’t want your fairy tale books taking up space on my harddrive.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 03:41
    Judging by your reaction I’d say you’re a hypocrite. “Zealot”!

    Why are so many vocal debian users either sycophants or crybabies?

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 17:19
    I don’t want your backwards religous superstitions forced on me just becuase i want to install kde-extras.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 04:11
    This is just an honest question, but what else is included with KDE extras that you can’t live without?
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: hackel
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 21:55
    I agree, religious software has no place in Debian.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 11:30
    Well… Actually I would say that all software has a place in debian, as long as it is easy to avoid it.
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 21:13
    Good luck for the exams! πŸ™‚ Just my opinion:
    – the latest and pretty fresh KDE is not a mission critical software
    – a Debian maintainer gives his/her _SPARE_ time to us, we should say thanks for it or/and we should make things better, WE – together, beside each other
    I think that’s all.
    Gabor
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: carney1979
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/25 – 05:02
    Glad you said that.
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: ironstorm
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 15:22
    I am disappointed in the general tone here from
    DanielS’ post and the folks that are supporting
    his position.

    I agree that the these folks are packaging up
    debs in their spair time and we should very much
    appriecate their efforts (and I for one do).

    What I don’t appriceicate is this BS that it is
    the end-user’s faults because we expect things
    done in a timely manner.

    Debian is not someone’s personal OS experiment
    it is a very large project, If you are not doing
    for your users who are you doing it for?

    Packagers responsible for packages that have high
    visibility within the project need to manage the
    expectations of their users (remember these are the
    people you are volunteering to help).

    Package maintainers would do well to communicate
    their timelines for releases, and yield control
    to others willing to help if they don’t have time
    to do the job.

    Waiting a week after a highly anticepated release
    and then telling the user community that they
    will have to wait another month, that no help
    will be accepted to do it faster and if they
    don’t like it they can go pay a packager (read:
    go install RedHat – who pays their packager or
    just fuck off) is not doing a good job of
    managing my expecations.

    BTW, special thank you to WhizNDR- for picking up
    the challenge and packaging KDE 3.

    -Ironstorm

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    Subject: Re: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 07:12
    Funnily enough, the reason I did Debian packaging wasn’t to manage users’ expectations … I signed up to package stuff. πŸ™‚
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: Joy
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 23:32
    Where did you see “that no help will be accepted to do it faster”?

    (note to the trigger-happy people out there: this is an honest question.)

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: ironstorm
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 15:09
    Seems to me this thread is full of folks who
    were either trying to build debs, eager to help
    and some wondering why the last deb CVS commits
    were by Krusty
    .

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 06:49
    Funny that calc has now committed almost everything to CVS, thus invalidating your point.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: Joy
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 18:41
    What exactly in any of those messages indicates that “no help will be accepted to do it faster”?
    I see nothing of the sort, not by a long shot.

    Official maintainer unavailable? Not an unsolvable problem, you can always find another Debian developer to upload.

    Packages not being Policy compliant? Not an unsolvable problem, just read the policy and correct bad stuff.

    No current work available? Not an unsolvable problem, work with the 2.2 packaging.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 20:21
    There’s no time to get it into Woody anyway. There’s enough time to get it into Woody+1 anyway, even if we wait several months. Thus, users will not be affected. What’s your point then?
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE3 and managing my expecations
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 21:40
    Oh yea.. And most Debian users are using Woody.. Oh yea.. umm right..
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Please don’t blame Chris for the behaviour of DanielS
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 09:10
    If you read through the comments here you will see that most of the shit has been started by DanielS.

    He has all the symptoms of an egotistical megalomaniac and should seek professional help.

    Responding to his outbursts only encourage his pathological behaviour. It is best if you just ignore him.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Please don’t blame Chris for the behaviour of DanielS
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 06:40
    Of course you are right. Daniel is nothing more than a wannabe martyr. His debs were a fucking joke, so now he is running around complaining about others complaining. He is no longer relevant and should be ignored, unfortunately he tries so very hard to seek attention. Note to DanielS: you claim you stopped packaging kde3 because of the bitchy users… truth is you couldn’t do it and your packages were disastrous, overwriting /usr/sbin! You are no longer relevant, GO AWAY!
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    Subject: Re: Please don’t blame Chris for the behaviour of DanielS
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 07:08
    You’re calling *me* an attention-seeker? πŸ™‚
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    Subject: Re: Please don’t blame Chris for the behaviour of DanielS
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 09:25
    Yes I am πŸ™‚

    I could give a shit if others see this. I’m just tired of you flaming everyone for _no_ reason. If you don’t like this then _please_ don’t post these stupid articles and refrain from blasting anyone who asks anything about debian/kde.

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    Subject: Re: Please don’t blame Chris for the behaviour of DanielS
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 09:31
    Well I belive that Daniel isn’t the kde3 packager, so you can’t really blame him…he has the right to an opinion about this just like you and I.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 04:28
    I’m new to Debian. I was drawn b/c of the package management system, but really I just like the philosophy behind deb and that it is the only true non-commercial system. (I tried Slack, and although not profoundly commercial…very newbie hostile…I’m a newbie, I can say that).

    The point is, I like Debian. I like everything about it. I run stable. I’m waiting for Woody. I would have liked KDE 3.0, but hey, I can wait for that too. I’m amazed by everything this organization is about and am proud of it with or without KDE 3.0.

    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: THANK YOU!
    Author: hackel
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 03:24
    Thanks to Chris (and Ivan and DanielS) for your work in packaging the mess that is KDE. It’s a shame that the KDE developers are such RPM snobs.

    Please don’t let the posters in this forum discourage you, the vast majority of Debian users appreciate what you’re doing.

    I do wonder, however, if a Debian CVS server would be appropriate for cases like this? That way something as huge as KDE could have multiple active maintainers, and even the general public would have access to work-in-progress packages, and be able to submit patches of their own. This is just a thought, and would make the “do it yourself” argument a little easier to swallow.

    I do look forward to the KDE release…when it’s ready. In the meantime, so little has changed from KDE 2.2 I think I’ll manage just fine.

    Ryan

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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 04:58
    KDE developers do not release any binaries in any form you fucking idiot!
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 08:28
    Eh, did he say that?

    No. πŸ™‚

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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 21:43
    KDE developers do not release (as an organization) rpm’s of binaries or source.
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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 22:43
    Yes but they work closely with the packages from other distros so there will packages ready for the release date.
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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 07:07
    Every distribution packager had the exact same opportunity to package KDE3, we were just the slowest of the bunch.
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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 23:23
    It’s not like the KDE people denied any such
    packaging attempts by Debian packagers before the
    release date. Debian packagers could have gotten
    their act together before or at least during the
    KDE 3.0 release.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 01:17
    exactly, in fact many kde developers use debian! So i ust say the packagers really dropped the ball on this one. KDE3 is a big release they should have been planning ahead for this one.
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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 09:11
    If anyone is to blame it’s DanielS. He took over after Ivan, but couldn’t handle the job. His kde3 debs were horrible and destructive so now he is relegated to complaining and whining. He is nothing more than an obnoxious, attention starved wannabe martyr.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 03:01
    Rubbish. He’s just a kid who wants to help out; maybe he can’t hack it now but in a few years he will learn. Just a pity that it has to be at the expense of the Debian community.
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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 03:57
    Well debian could actually screen the developers first and make sure they actually have what it takes to release packages in a proper manner.
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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: dopey
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 05:05
    for the record: DanielS wasnt a developer.
    Anyhow, he made a good attempt at fixing any bugs he could, and re publically said the kde3 debs be build were probably buggy.
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    Subject: Re: THANK YOU!
    Author: ringerc
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 04:09
    Oh… in addition to this I think the X Strike Force have it right:

    http://people.debian.org/~branden/official_motto.jpg

    Alas, I can’t > it (but that’s how it should be).
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 00:14
    using not being paid as an excuse for poor performance is just weak.

    Consider how pathetic it would be to sign up for greenpeace and then say “you want me to do what? no way i have more important stuff to do” so what the fuck did you sign up for then? To be a cool guy? now you just look lame.

    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: gardionx
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 23:18
    The most significant issue posted here seems to be lack of
    communication.

    So how about a Database that contains package timelimes. ie
    an entry might go something link this


    Package Name: foo
    Package Version: 3.0
    Expected Completion Date: June 20th
    Package Maintainer: John Smith
    Staus: 20% completed
    Depends on Package: foobar v. 3.2

    Log entries:
    —————————–
    April 12th –
    —————-
    Things are taking longer than expected and I have a
    project due in a week. The completion date will be moved
    back to July 5th.

    If you would like to help this is what needs to be done done.

    1. package foobar needs to be completed
    2. package foo needs to be split into 3 packages foo1 foo2 and foo3.
      See foo version 2.2 as an example.


    I will not be responding to emails until my project is complete.
    ——————————–
    April 14th
    ————-
    Some of you have indicated that you would like to help. I am nominating
    Bill Doe to take charge of coordinating working on the packages until my project is done.
    Email him if you have any concerns as I won’t respond to email until my project
    is done.

    It would be the package maintainers responsibility to keep people posted and the
    users responsibility to check the database before contacting the package maintainer

    Package maintainers could setup their email to automatically
    respond with a link pointing to this database and possibly an FAQ.

    A Good FAQ for debian planet and/or Debian.org would be nice to have.
    Some things to add would be What is considered a troll? Why was posting X considered a troll? (Debian planet)
    and Why isn’t package x done? Answer: See the status database at

    With some well thought out Answers to questions you can just referusers to the FAQ’s, no matter how tempting it is to flame them.

    The person would need access to some webspace with a database(MySQL) and PHP and/or JSP support and eventually a way to authenticated Debian developers. (ideally on Debianplanet or the debian.org website)

    If anyone would like to take on this project that would be good (or at least would use this database.) I may take on it myself but I’ll have see what my time and interestet and also if anyone (both users and developers) would use this database and whether anyone would be willing to help.

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    Subject: Agreed.
    Author: suki
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 11:31
    I think this one should be part of Debian policy in the near future (in one form or another). I understand that any changes in the policy is a very sensitive subject to talk about, but I think we _really_ should at least consider this proposition. If this is done well, there will be some extra work for the maintainers, but it would free some resources to concentrate on more important issues. Thus making the experience more pleasant for both impatient users and busy developers.
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    Subject: Re: Agreed.
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 09:45
    It should NOT be essential. It should be a “may” at the very most, hosted externally. Maintainers don’t need any more pressure.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 08:10
    I agree, I think if had something like this it would solve a lot of problems. The important thing is to give feedback to users, one way or another.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: gardionx
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 23:19
    I am the original poster. If there is something like this that would be nice to konw about.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 22:19
    What do the buddhists say?

    Something like “let go of your desires and your suffering will cease” well something along those lines anyways…

    I stopped careing about getting the super brand new stuff a while back and now this stuff that seems to bother everyone else doens’t really bug me at all.

    Are there reasons to be excited about kde3? sure, will it be great to see mozilla 1.0 finally release? yup. Still i say calm down, relax, it’ll get to debian eventually.

    I’ve gotten used to the “fantastic new version of xyz has been released!” then sit back relax and some day an apt-get update will have the packages and all is well.

    The last time i really was heavily anticipating something new it was the 2.4 kernel, but that took so long to stabilize i guess it mellowed me out.

    The maintainers really do a pretty good job. The last maintainer that was really dropping the ball was the old mozilla maintainer, he would literally miss 2 or 3 milestones before even packaging anything. That was bad. He was eventually replaced. If a maintainer truely is shirking his duties, someone will replace them. The other maintainers are doing ok. don’t sweat it.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 18:36
    I just wish *any* information on KDE 3.0 was available on the top hit for [google: kde debian]. This was maintained by Mr. Moore II, but the last info on it was that he is no longer performing packaging. Sad, but will he turn the site over to the person who *is* doing the packaging, and would that person update the site with updates (even to the effect of ‘I’m studying for finals’ (and that temporary adoption thing was a good idea too).
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 17:12
    I think a lot of these problems can be avoided if they make a commitment to a shorter release cycle. After Woody is released, target a few major updates like KDE 3.0/3.1, Gnome 2, Xfree86 4.2, and Mozilla 1.0 and then immediately start a freeze and prep for the next release. State what your goals are now for the next distribution and stick to it.

    I’m not sure if it would even be possible under the current system, but I would really like to see a new stable dist every 6 to 9 months. You can still properly QA the packages because unlike most other distributions, you don’t have to put in the lastest bleeding edge stuff.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 00:05
    Well that’s a good idea but the problem is debian never ever accepts critiscism. Debian has developed an excellent array of excuse for any critiscism it may receive. “do it yourself” “so what, redhat sucks more” “we aren’t paid” etc. With this great excuses why change? plus change is all scary and stuff. plus more might be demanded of the developers, and they certainly wouldn’t want that. No this is a large flaw of debian. To debian developer community debian is perfect in all ways. Anyone who disagrees is obviously a newbie, a troll or just a stupid fuck. Debian is perfect and how dare you make a suggestion! The release cycle is perfect. It’s you who has a problem not debian.
    ya whatever.

    Really getting change in debian is like getting change in congress, it ain’t gonna happen. Status Quo always prevails.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 04:12
    Last thing I heard, the next stable was sceduled for this christmas…
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    Subject: (Unofficial) KDE 3.0 working great in Debian. Thanks!
    Author: benmhall
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:48
    I just downloaded the “experimental” packages that were mentioned in the messages above. I extracted them with dpkg -x to avoid clashes with KDE2, and everything is working great!

    Thanks for slapping together those temp packages. I hadn’t really been chomping at the bit to play with KDE3, but since it was made so easy, why not!

    Maybe KDE.org should do something like this. Maybe they should just build a couple of binary tarballs to give users something to play with while the distributors make the real packages.

    Lets face it, KDE3 is a major change (from a package point of view.) It’s only been out for a week or two, that’s not bad at all. If I walk into Future Shop and buy a Linux distro sitting on their shelf it won’t have KDE3 yet, what’s the big deal?

    I guess this sort of thing is nothing new for KDE developers, but I hope they don’t give up on the whole thing. There may be a noisy, rude minority, but jerks happen everywhere.

    Anyway, thanks for giving me a taste of KDE3.0. Were these packages compiled with objprelink? I have to say, it doesn’t seem too speedy on my Athlon4 1GHz with 256MB of RAM. Oh well, it is nicely integrated.. I guess that’s the price.

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    Subject: Re: (Unofficial) KDE 3.0 working great in Debian. Thanks!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 19:05
    Ok you’re welcome for making the packages…just trying to get some people off of calc’s back as he is working hard…it took me 14 hours of time to get them compile and packaged up on a Dual Athlon XP 1700+ machine. It was not compiled with that extention simply because it was gving me some problems but look for version 2 of my experimental packages to possibly fix this…

    Thanks,
    WhizNDR-

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    Subject: Re: (Unofficial) KDE 3.0 working great in Debian. Thanks!
    Author: JAM
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 23:32
    14 hours? qt-copy + arts + kdelibs + kdebase don’t take more than 3 hours to compile on my system, which is also an Athlon XP 1700+ but not dual.
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    Subject: Re: (Unofficial) KDE 3.0 working great in Debian. Thanks!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 03:57
    ah but did you compile and PACKAGE all the KDE 3 source files or just those few?

    WhizNDR-

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 10:30
    kde 2.2 works.

    kde project said kde 2.2 to 3.0 isn’t as
    dramatic a change as it sounds.
    Mostly about getting all the code on qt 3.0 foundation as a foundation big improvements in a future releases.

    constructive criticism is not an oxymoron
    but rather a rarity.

    keep up the good work chris.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: caf
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 09:06
    What people need to understand when they use Debian is that they’re using an operating system worked on entirely by volunteers, and as such they’re signing up to a system that runs on mutual respect and co-operation.

    What users need to do:
    Realise that the packagers are people like you, and that they don’t owe you anything. If you say “Where the FUCKING HELL is PACKAGE FOO you LAZY BONEIDLE BASTARD” then you’re likely to get a response in kind. “Hi, I’ve noticed there seems to be a bit of a delay on package foo, do you need a hand?” should be far more likely to yield a positive response.

    What developers need to do:
    If people do ask genuine questions in a nice way, don’t flame them. Keep in mind that although this might be the 100th time you’ve recieved this question, this is probably the 1st time they’ve asked it.

    I don’t believe the original story should have gone on DebianPlanet, at least in the form that I read it. It may have been intended for a minority of people that have been flaming the package maintainer, but it sure read like an aggressive attack on all debian users. As such, it’s only served to inflame feelings. And I’m afraid adding a smiley on the end doesn’t really do anything to make it less incendiary either.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Joy
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 23:23
    I did not put a smiley there to alleviate his statement, I put it there because his reaction made me laugh, it reminded me of a funny pattern.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 10:32
    i can understand cafs point of view.

    Anyway, i compiled kde3 from source on my Gentoo distribution and i got the impression that it’s way more unstable than kde2.2.2

    Perhaps all of us could wait some more weeks til we get
    REAL stable kde3.{0,1} packages.

    Some sort of stuff Debian is famous for.

    I prefer an slightly outdated distri with _working _ packages instead of bleeding edge core dumping software
    (in this case i’d prefer Windows!)

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 09:25
    I think you got it wrong. I have been on #debian-kde for some time and I never seen anybody say :
    “Where the FUCKING HELL is PACKAGE FOO you LAZY BONEIDLE BASTARD”
    Contrary, the people tend to ask kind questions, but they receive unclear answers, that indicates that packages are going to be ready very soon. Than, when it takes several weeks without any explanation, it makes people angry. Suprised?
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 13:13
    Read my comment entitled “Clarification”. There was a lot of abuse in the submissions queue.
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    Subject: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 08:36
    All the post that had something bad to say about packagers have been moded down to -1, so they don’t appear on default. Perhaps you should instead listen to what they say, ignorance tends to make users choose another os. So much for democracy.
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    Subject: Goodbye Debian
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 22:59
    Personally I’ve had enough of this shit.

    After 3 years of this I dont feel bad about warning the people who ask me for advice to stay away from Debian. Just because something is done by volunteers does NOT mean that the users are obligated to suck the cocks of all the developers and like it.

    If you sign up for volunteer work that does NOT mean that you can do whatever the fuck you want just because you are a volunteer. Accepting the job means you accept the responsibility that comes with the job. Being a maintainer for a large and high-profile package like KDE means you have even more responsibility than maintainers of other packages. More demands will be placed on you. One of those is that the packages are out on fucking time. If you don’t like this: DONT TAKE THE JOB.

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    Subject: Re: Goodbye Debian
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 23:58
    Ya it’s like signing up for geekcorp and then going to work 5 hours late everyday and saying “hey i don’t get paid for this shit so shut up and be glad i help you at all you stupid fuck”. That wouldn’t go over to well. So it shouldn’t be a big suprise that users are constantly being alienated by ego-pumped developers with some open source martyr syndrome “oh i give all my free time and energy for this, why can’t you love me? well FUCK YOU then!” this is a pretty shitty way to get people interesting in your project. No one becomes a debian developer without being a user first so your really only hurting yourself by driving away people. At one time i thought i might like to help out debian, but the elitist attitude and cool guy club atmosphere, not to mention plenty of immature crap to, i have certainly ruled out helping debian. Of course the cool dude developer will say from his pedastal “you aren’t cool and elite enough to help debian anyway so fuck off” and that is EXACTLY what i mean. Assuming everyone is stupid and lazy. I want no part of that.

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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 14:42
    What are you saying? This IS a democracy! I personally have not done *any* moderation, and I doubt any of the other DP editors have, either. It’s just a reflection of the fact that most of the posters are trolling dipshits who have nothing better to do with their time than abuse people who do work of them, for FREE, and bitch about their work, despite it being completely free. Interesting to note that almost everything at -1 is Anonymous, which starts at 0. And why is it Anonymous? Because it’s a goddamn TROLL.
    You wonder why Ivan and I left? Maybe it’s because the “community” are such a bunch of ungrateful pricks. There are a few cool people here who actually have a grip on such facts as “calc is completely unpaid and has exams in 2 weeks” and “so is everyone else”, but the rest of you are just spoilt little shits, pure and simple. Grow up.
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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 04:59
    YOU GROW THE FUCK UP! All I hear from you is complaining about other users complaining! YOU are NOT RELEVANT! The only contribution I see coming from you are these ridiculous posts and articles. I am fine waiting for the debs, but I am sick and tired of you and your damn martyr syndrome!
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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 04:05
    And now you complain about people complaining about people complaining? You can’t win πŸ™‚

    Personally I’d rather have package maintainers, with an atitude who doesn’t inform me of when the package will be ready, than none at all… I like debian and I wait for the packages… I’m in no rush.

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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 18:30
    Ok, let me clarify some things. First I should say that I respect every debian developer for their hard work. Now I don’t now what happend when you and Ivan left, but I know what happened now. And I can say that this hole kde3 debs situation was handled poorly. Sure everybody wants kde3 debs and packagers don’t have time to make them. I think that like 95% of the community will accept this fact. The problem was that several times it was implied that kde3 debs where almost ready, which made a lot of people check for debs every day/several times a day. Yes it is an important package for many. Perhaps if calc had realized that if he only posted what the problem was (i.e shortage of time) almost everybody would understand and some would probably offer him help.
    Instead people kept asking about debs without really getting any clear answers. And packagers of course got tired of the constant whining.
    Perhaps we can all learn something of this. I don’t belive that the . Not when you treat them nice. Simply saying what the problem is will be enough for many.
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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 18:34
    Next last line should say: I don’t belive that the “community” are such a bunch of ungrateful pricks.
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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 14:47
    Maybe you should get a clue about users.

    Feed them information, be nice to them, help them – and guess what: they’ll sure as hell be nice to you.

    Simply look at the old bug reports Ivan handled, many of them got a “oh thanks very much Ivan”.

    If you can’t put up with users and don’t understand howto satisify them, don’t do the job – simple as that.

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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 18:25
    I am not surprised. It is that kind of shitty elitist attitude from SO MANY of the debian developers that scares away many new users.

    Just because you are a package maintainer does not mean you have to be a total BOFH and treat your users like dirt.

    Developers who can’t control what comes out of their mouths should be kept locked in a dark basement and set to work on something so obscure that there is a 0% chance of them ever having to interact with human beings again.

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    Subject: Re: Intresting…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 08:08
    Developers who can’t control what comes out of their mouths should be kept locked in a dark basement and set to work on something so obscure that there is a 0% chance of them ever having to interact with human beings again.
    I advocate the same solution for users.
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    Subject: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 07:53
    I posted this after recieving two submissions – one entitled “Where the FUCK is KDE3?”, and another entitled “Where are the fucking KDE debs?”. THAT is the sort of thing that pisses me off.
    I wasn’t referring to the legions of people that have sat tight, wondering how they can help; I was referring to the small but vocal group of complete and utter MORONS (we really should disable anonymous submissions) who posted, flaming at calc. I have deleted in excess of 100 submissions about KDE3; some nice, some not-so-nice, and some downright rude. If you’re going to make a rude submission again, give me co-ordinates accurate enough for an ICBM.
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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 04:53
    And I am sick of you bitching about other people bitching! You are not even involved with this anymore so why don’t you shut the fuck up!

    Why do you feel like this has _anything_ to do with you? I am fine waiting for calc and the debs, but what I can’t stand is you berating other users to stop complaining like you are standing around wringing your hands like you are in anyway responsible for packaging kde3!

    Only thing I can conclude is this is your way of still feeling relevant to the whole issue, like you are one of the debian-kde leaders.

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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 07:01
    Do you just reply to every single comment I make with the same off-topic troll?
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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 09:22
    Nope, just the ones where you proceed to flame all the end-users for no apparent reason. Come to think of it, just like this whole damn article that your responsible for. And how is it offtopic when you yourself initiated this stupid article _and_ this stupid thread. I’m simply responding to your poor excuse for starting this whole thing.
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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 12:39
    Get a life, and show who you are. Then, stop trolling.

    My god, I could get more intelligent conversation from AskJeeves, apt, or /dev/urandom.

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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 18:41
    Why? My identity does not negate nor would it enhance the simple fact that _you_ created this article and that it was unnecessary and insulting to _all of us_. And if you do not like the tenor of this conversation then I would suggest you refrain from posting.
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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 08:06
    Posting this may indeed have been a mistake, yes. I did it in an attempt to stem the flow of abusive articles into the submissions bin; could well have been a misguided attempt. The aim was not to insult anyone, but to rebuke those abusing the DebianPlanet staff and KDE3 packaging people, and nothing else. It came off as abusing all of DP’s readership, and I’ve already offered my apologies for the fact to those who I didn’t mean to offend.
    Oh, and I think your browser’s broken, it seems to have chopped “, said the pot to the kettle” off the end of your post.
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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 14:42
    What were the content of these posts?

    If you deleted over 100 submissions there was obviously something that needed adressing daniels.

    You should have posted a small status report atleast after post number 5 saying “hey guys, calm down – kde 3 is comming in about X weeks, we are working hard on it, if you want to give a hand join ‘#debian-kde'” – rather than being a stuck up bitch and ignoring all the users because “itl be ready when its ready”.

    Users didn’t have the right to get angry over late packages – but the SURE DID over the fucked up information blockage they got from people on #debian AND DEBIAN PLANET!

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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 03:39
    Everyone: (not just above)
    Did you perhaps miss the message?
    These guys are working hard. Sure part of it is because _they_ want it but a lot will be just helping out the project.
    “You should” and “why didn’t you” are not helpful questions. If you feel that strongly about it, package kde3 yourself.
    Can’t? Then do you know whats involved? Do you have any right to criticize?
    I’ll admit that I as much as anyone would like to hear a bit more about what’s going on, but I’ll listen quietly or ask _politely_.
    We don’t pay these guys and few contribute beyond the occasional bug investigation or just report. If you want someone to bitch at, please hire someone to work on Debian and bitch at them as much as you want.
    The “attitude problem” of developers you refer to is probably largely fostered by the ingratitude and rudeness of non-contributing users.

    On my part: thanks daniel and others for your tolerance. I know I’d be wishing that mailbombs could be delivered over email…

    Anon only because I post v. occasionally and don’t have a uid.

    Craig Ringer
    craig%40postnewspapers[dot]com[dot]au

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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: ringerc
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 04:02
    Registered now. Confirm: above comment was me.
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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 13:15
    This, of course, was my post. Apologies for not making it clearer in the first place.
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    Subject: Re: Clarification
    Author: crackedviewchris
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 08:57
    Then why didn’t you say that in the original story? Instead you just make it look like anyone who is wondering about KDE3 in Debian is a jerk.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: crackedviewchris
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 04:53
    Someone earlier posted asking why people are posting saying they’re moving to *BSD. Personally, I used Debian for three years and didn’t really have a serious problem with the technical aspects of the distro. What I did have a problem with was the attitude of Debian pkg maintainers and other users in general. Even on the OpenBSD mailing lists, the first time a newbie asks a question they get a pointer in the right direction, even if the pointer is a ‘check out the list archives, the question was answered last week’ or something. With debian, if you pop onto #debian or OPN or, god-forbid, contact the maintainer directly, you get told to fuckoff and the pkg will be ready when it’s ready. I’m sorry, but why do people volunteer to maintain the packages for a program if they’re going to get pissed if someone asks for a timeframe or if they don’t have the hardware/time/whatever to actually maintain it. Is it that much of a shock that people would like to be able to apt-get the new release of a program within a few weeks of it’s release? Yes, the users can build it from source, but, like KDE or not, it is one of the most high-profile open source projects around and people are going to expect that such a project be available for their distro in whatever pkg format that distro uses.

    Ugh, I rambled a bit, sorry about that. And, also, why are the KDE3 pkgs waiting on XFree86 4.2? KDE3 runs quite happily on 4.1 and 4.0.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Joy
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 10:19
    You have a really, really skewed view of Debian if you think it all comes down to one IRC channel.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/04/21 – 19:44
    Well that’s where all the developers go when they want to make fun of the end users and disrespect people.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 06:30
    You think #debian is where all the developers live?
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 17:09
    The IRC channel #debian is one of my least favorite aspects of the Debian distro. I have been in there many times, asking short questions, that I get no answer to, or worse, the wrong answer to. I do my best when I am in the channel to answer questions that I do know the answer to, many of which are newbie questions. Yes, answering those questions can get repetitive, and a little annoying, but for god’s sake, answer them and be polite about it. The rudeness in the channel is infectious, and puts a horrible face on our community. Read all of the posts in this thread about people switching to BSD’s, and note the elitist tone in them, and avoid it at all costs. Debian users are well known for that same tone in Linux circles. Instead of saying “Read the topic, and fuck you for asking.”, just say “Read the topic please”. And as for you asking the questions, please be polite as well, sometimes a little patience is required, as there are three or four questions being answered in the channel at once, and its not easy to have that many streams of conversation going at once, and still participate in all of them. Please, just be polite in the channel, it would make it a better experience for all involved.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 21:59
    ya it’s true, #debian is a pit of trolls. The only problem is said trolls are in control of the channel. You go in and ask a question and automatically it is assumed you are a total moron and must be corrected at every turn. For example you may ask “so is there an eta for the x 4.2 debs?” and you get two possible answers “shut up you luser if you want to use debian compile everything your self you lazy shitbag” or the talking down type troll response of “x? what’s x? there is no “X” in debian, you probably meant xfree86 but where entirely to stupid and moronic to realize what you are talking about”

    i mean really that is the worst channel. There are people there who are apparently well regarded by the ops becuase they ceaselessly start aurgements with newbies or non-regulars that ask a simple question. and then what happens? the non-regular gets banned and the ops troll buddy stays on to harrass more users. The place is total crap. Someone with 5 years of unix programming experience could come in and ask a simple dselect question and they will make fun of and talk down to the person like a total newbie. It’s so lame.

    Like you’ll see some cool #debian regular shitting on a user new to debian and acting all big and smart becuase he has memorized the man pages for apt-get and then the next day you see the same big bad debian genius in some other channel asking the most basic tcp/ip questions. It’s really lame.

    That’s the problem with open source or Free Software if that’s what you call it. Stallman says it’s supposed to be about helping each other and having a community and sharing. But what it really boils down to is a bunch of chest thumping and pissing contests in a big rush for social status in the “community”. It’s pretty lame. I mean come on what are you gorillas? go ahead and beat your chest and growl in front of some debian newbie, we’re all so impressed. I’m sure you’ll get to impregnate the most healthy female becuase of your elite position in the open source social heirarchy….pshhh you corny asses.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 02:40
    > That’s the problem with open source or Free Software if that’s what you call it. Stallman says it’s supposed to be about helping each other and having a community and sharing. But what it really boils down to is a bunch of chest thumping and pissing contests in a big rush for social status in the “community”. It’s pretty lame. I mean come on what are you gorillas? go ahead and beat your chest and growl in front of some debian newbie, we’re all so impressed. I’m sure you’ll get to impregnate the most healthy female becuase of your elite position in the open source social heirarchy….pshhh you corny asses.

    Close; we’re related to apes, and apes (like us) vie for status in their social hierarchy. No one in Debian gets paid, so what else is there but social status to measure the size of … ?

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 06:54
    I find that Debian is treated not as an OS, but as some kind of special club for people who are Debian developers (and those who pretend to be Debian developers on IRC).

    It is not practical for me to go “make the packages myself.” I don’t even know where to begin, nor do I have the time to learn. And why should I? I signed up as a user, not as a developer.

    Another poster really sumed up my feelings by saying: “Computers are supposed to be a tool not a problem.” I will take the time to learn how to use the OS, but why should also be required to learn how program it?

    The “Go do it yourself,” response that I see given so often is completely UNACCEPTABLE. That is not a valid response.

    If Debian is some kind of club for software developers only then it should be clearly stated somewhere with a Disclaimer so that people who just want to be users know to stay away. E.g. “Disclaimer: This distro is recommended for use by software developers only. If you are looking for a tool instead of a problem, expect to be flamed on IRC”

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 09:37
    The people complaining about KDE3 are all running either Woody or Unstable. AFAIK those releases do come with a disclaimer saying something like “This release is intended for developers and testers only. Expect all kinds of problems/delays etc.”

    The major problem with Debian is that the Stable release is usually so embarrassingly out-dated that most Debian users are forced to run Unstable if they want to run any software created in the last 2 years. Potato is so old that even magazine publishers are putting Woody on their cds.

    So normal users end up being forced to run an Unstable release of Debian. However, these users demand a higher level of quality/service than Unstable and Testing are designed to provide. Hence we have a LOT of upset users when there is a delay like this.

    Debian developers: either fix the problem or learn to deal with angry users. Releasing one Stable every leap-year forces most of your userbase to run the Unstable release of Debian. And there will always be delays/problems/bugs of some kind in Unstable, so you will always have a lot of angry and unsatisfied users.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 16:13
    that’s probably the most sensible thing I’ve read in all this nonsense.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: crackedviewchris
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 07:00
    Well, I feel that learning how to compile a program is part of learning the OS. But I agree that it’s not a really tactful answer.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:20
    What? Why should you ever need to compile an application to learn how to use an OS?
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    Subject: Give the kid a break…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 04:26
    I have exams in under a week… nobody’s going to catch me making debs right now. Let the kid breathe.

    You could always just build it from source

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    Subject: Re: Give the kid a break…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 09:15
    The “kid” claimed that kde3 debs where almost ready 2 weeks ago. Checking back every day just to read childish posting on #debian-kde kinda pisses you off.
    The least they can do is say: We don’t have time, or we run into problems; it won’t be ready for weeks.
    Fine, I wouldn’t be happy, but I would understand.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 02:48
    The old response of “well just package it yourself” is so ridiculous. Ya know some people just want an operating system that works. Computers are supposed to be a tool not a problem. The selling point of debian is how easy apt-get is to use, but if you have to go and package crap yourself what the hell is the point then? And it’s not even in UNSTABLE we’re talking here, as for stable? forget it! so debian is supposed to be stable with easy package management. But if you have to use unstable and/or package crap yourself that defeats the whole freakin purpose in the first place.

    Shit you might as well say this “what you got a problem with bugs in windows? well go get a job at microsoft and fix em you lazy bastard! they’ll even pay you!”

    i mean come on this is getting re-god-damn-diculous…

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:26
    Where did you _buy_ debian?

    So what’s this talk about ‘_selling_ points’?

    As it said in the story: Go pay the developers, then you’re a customer, and then you can start demanding.

    Until then, you’re enjoying the fruits of volunteer labour and you’ll have to wait until after the exams.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 09:40
    Fuck You.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 19:37
    I guess we all need to blow of some steam but being polite might actually change somebody’s point of view.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 22:51
    OK.

    Fuck you, please.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 04:56
    Ya know some people just want an operating system that works
    KDE 2.2 works.

    The selling point of debian is how easy apt-get is to use, but if you have to go and package crap yourself what the hell is the point then?
    To apt-get to work, someone has first to make the packages. They don’t create themselves of pure entropy.

    what you got a problem with bugs in windows? well go get a job at microsoft and fix em you lazy bastard! they’ll even pay you!
    That sounds cool. But getting a job at Microsoft is not trivial; you can’t just FTP to microsoft.org:21 and get a job.

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    Subject: Results of compile
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 02:37
    This is a FYI. I didn’t want to wait for the .debs to show up either. I kept hearing how fast KDE3 was and how if you compiled with –enable-objprelink app load times were really small. Let me tell you, KDE3 is fast, load times are small and best of all, it’s easy to compile and install *without* breaking anything.
    Just pick a spot to decompress the different packages. /tmp is fine (I use /temp myself). You’ll have to compile in the right order or use a script. I did it one package at a time because I’m AR. Start with QT, move to ARTS then LIBS then BASE (I think that’s it) then whatever. Try this ./configure line:
    ./configure –with-qt-includes=/opt/qt3/include/ –with-qt-libraries=/opt/qt3/lib/ –with-qt-dir=/opt/qt3/ –enable-objprelink –prefix=/opt/kde3

    You will have to install QT in the right place. Pick a place. Don’t accept the default (or do, if you want but I don’t know what will happen then). Now you have compiled everything and installed it separately from your normal SID install. Whee. No damage.

    To run it, I added /opt/kde3/bin to the START of my PATH. Do this in .bashrc or where ever is appropriate for you. I’ve also set QTDIR=/opt/qt3 and KDEDIR=/opt/kde3.

    It’s possible that you might have to add a line to ld.so.conf but I didn’t need to. Once this is all done (less than it seems) you just start/restart X and there KDE3 is! The best part is that kde apps (from SID) have been running fine with the new KDE libs, base, etc. This includes the entire koffice package which I didn’t compile right away.

    I hope this helps someone. Keep in mind that this worked for *me* and you might completely hose your system.

    Two more things: 1) The entire compile time is less than 8 hours on a Tbird 1100. 2) I copied my new /opt dirs to another SID box at work and it has worked perfectly with no tweaks.

    I’m not sure what I’ll do when the official .debs are released. Someone please tell me what to do. πŸ™‚

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    Subject: You have a serious error…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/23 – 16:20
    –enable-objprelink does one thing: it enables object prelinking. It does not impliment it. So you’re either lying / hopelessly and blindly optomistic about your performance increases, OR you have the objprelink tool and you don’t even realize it. If you are serious about using this very unstable hack, you have to go here and get the source for the tool, build it, and dump it in your path somewhere. When you do that, THEN the proceedure mentioned above will cause KDE’s Make scripts to pass the object files thru this tool before linking them. Otherwise, you accomplish nothing by rebuilding.
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    Subject: Re: Results of compile
    Author: zedar
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 04:43
    Theres no need to compile qt manually, the qt3 packages already available worked fine when i compiled kde3 the other day.
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    Subject: Very Annoyed
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 02:14
    This whole experience has really pissed me off.

    First Debian Planet waits until this long to even post anything. And I know they have had hundreds of requests about KDE3. If there is a KDE3 delay pretending that it isn’t a problem doesn’t help regular users like me. It just makes us more annoyed.

    About the IRC flaming: if you even try to ask about KDE3 on #debian @ openprojects.net, you get a reply like “When its ready and fuck you for asking,” and then you wonder why we are so pissed off? I’m surprised that the amount of IRC flames is so low.

    So the maintainer has exams. Ok, fine. But what does this mean? We won’t see KDE3 until 3-4 weeks from now? Can we at least have an estimated time schedule?

    KDE3 is an important package and massive delays make the entire Debian operating system look bad. Bad in a way that makes regular users like me feel like going back to Redhat. Bad in a way that makes potential users stay far, far away.

    /rant

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    Subject: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: elcrago
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:39
    What’s with all the “Debian sucks, I’m switching to *BSD” posts? Why would any of you post that? What do you hope to gain or who do you hope to help? Debian users? BSD users?

    Second, since when has Debian tried to be avant-guard? I’ve never advertised Debian to my friends as being up-to-date with the latest glossy software. I advertise it as having a difficult install and a steep learning curve which rewards the effort with consistency, quality, developer responsiveness and security.

    Every distribution, commercial or private, free or proprietary, with any kernel, with any mix of GNU packages, with any policy, has its own purpose. If none of them suit you, feel free to post constructive criticizm, but don’t go ragging on people or projects as if they are somehow slacking off or making poor decisions. If it bothers you that much, switch distributions or make your own.

    Kudos for DebianPlanet for having the patience to tolerate this nonsense.

    Here’s my final (tongue in cheek) response: “I’ve been meaning to change my default browsing threshold on Debian Planet for a long time, and I finally did because of this threads comments.”

    Yeesh.

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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 13:56
    Second, since when has Debian tried to be avant-guard? I’ve never advertised Debian to my friends as being up-to-date with the latest glossy software. I advertise it as having a difficult install and a steep learning curve which rewards the effort with consistency, quality, developer responsiveness and security.

    As I always say “I’m not an elitist, I just want decent package management”.

    apt-get install whatever-I-want πŸ™‚

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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 13:30
    What do you mean, tolerate? I wish I had a button to nuke most of the shit in here.
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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 09:15
    Hey you fuckwad, YOU are the one who started this little bitch article! What the fuck is wrong with you! Just stop posting these bullshit troll articles.

    You are not even the kde3 packager, so quit acting like you feel responsible and are under such pressure.

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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 06:57
    As if I needed reminding of the fact, along comes a brilliant example. I find it interesting you tell me not to post the articles, when you’re no doubt part of the trolls submitting them all.

    DP is like Slashdot, but less busy. *sigh*

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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 09:17
    I have submitted no articles to you whatsoever. I have not solicited your opinions/complaints about the kde packaging in any circumstance.

    Fact is I am fine with the job Calc is doing. I am just tired of seeing your flames all around the net to anyone who asks the most innocent of questions about the kde packaging. What makes these flames particularly infuriating is the questions/opinions are not addressed to you at all, yet you proceed to flame away no matter. For examples of this behaviour see the ‘Polite Way’ thread above.

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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 12:34
    Answer me this: Do you classify a submission entitled “Where the FUCK are KDE3 debs?” as polite? Or a series of submissions repeated 11 times, with “This is the 11th time … where the fuck are the KDE3 debs? […] Don’t make me do it a 12th time”, with the numbers incrementing every time. Do you classify either of those as polite?
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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 18:37
    No I don’t consider those submissions polite. My suggestion to you is to ignore them. Instead you’ve decided to respond and amplify these messages by creating this article which is insulting to all of us, not just the one’s who sent you these submissions.

    If this article were simple frustration then I’d understand, but I’ve seen you amp out on people who ask innocent questions also, such as “What’s the status of the kde debs?”. With this history I find it highly circumspect that you needed _any_ excuse to post this article.

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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 06:26
    I’d like to apologize to anyone I’ve offended that haven’t made any submissions, or flamed Chris. It was purely unintentional.
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    Subject: Re: OT: Debian Planet user attitude
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 02:52
    Developer responsiveness? Isn’t this exactly what we are talking about right now? total lack of developer responsiveness? yes i think it is.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:10
    damn you’d think people would realize by now…if you use debian you have to wait a while for new packages. get over it or use something else. I mean if you are new to debian and don’t understand fine, but if you have been using debian for 6 months or a year you should know by now debian, for better or worse, does not get packages that fast. Personally i think replacing potato with something a lot more uptodate is more important than stuffing a point release of x or even a new kde into unstable. there are plenty of alternatives to debian, if you don’t like it don’t use it. I don’t mean that in a bad way, i mean seriously if it really bothers you that much please do find a distro that suits you. You don’t even have to stick with linux. I mean there are plenty of free software systems out there, the whole point is your not locked in. Don’t drive yourself nuts holding your breath waiting for a new packages, use something else. Would a faster release cycle and quicker integration of new packages be great? absolutly, but it probably won’t happen, so get used to it or use something else. This probably sounds like an attitude of “love it or leave it!” or something, i mean it in a try to recongize if “it’s nice but not my cup of tea” for you kind of thing, you know…
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:22
    “if you don’t like it don’t use it”

    Yeah, folks! This is what you get, if you make a well-meant proposition or a hint to debian.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 03:10
    Amen. I think that a lot of people are being very unfiar to the people who are providing us with this wonderful system. They have no obligation to get software packaged the day afeter it is release. Or the week after. Or the month after. If this is to slow for you, then you package it. Or find someone who will do a better job. Or try a system that does have the software packaged. But don’t complain about how the debian packagers are taking so long or how they are not notifying the public with their progress. Please remember that these people put in a lot of work for little or (more often) no money. If its not good enough for you, do it yourself, or find someone who will do a better job.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: CaPS
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 08:19
    I need to be able to use my system. My Linux machine is my Primary Workstation (and quite frankly, my only workstation). I can’t just switch OS’ when I get a grudge with the distribution.
    I happen to like the APT system, I haven’t seen it around on much other distributions. (though I suppose I could try Connectiva some day ..)

    I think you’re switching stuff around though, you say we can’t bitch at people for not packaging or being slow at it. However, noone forced “The Packager” into being the package maintainer. He (or she πŸ™‚ ) CHOSE to be one. With that choice comes responsibility..

    KDE 3 isn’t just your everyday package that gets updated every frickin week. I could understand how packagers get fed up with that. This is quite the big release for KDE and I think that Debian should keep up with “big releases”.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: AutoBot
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:58
    No I think you look at things all wrong, If everyone that was pissed about KDE3 being unreleased were to take your advice and “use something else” I’m afraid Debian would take such a large hit that instead of being about 5th or 6th in the list of “most used distro’s” it wouldn’t even be in the top 50 anymore. And if the developers can’t take criticism from users when whats being criticised is not the users fault it is the developers fault for giving false misleading statements, they should IMO move on to other things. I’m just stating facts that you Mr.Anonymous need to be aware of, I am not worried about KDE3 in the least as I have already compiled and am using as we speak.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:45
    Nice rant. But I need KDE 3.

    I need BiDi support. How would you feel if you got an enviroment that does not support English (I’m assuming that it is your native language) ?

    BTW I took your advice and dumped Debain for my workstation (sadly, now use it only for servers). I now happily run LinuxFromScratch and tracking X,KDE and Gnome 2 (also with BiDi support) from CVS.

    This is what unstable should have been.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: dopey
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:09

    http://www.geniussystems.net/KDE3 Experimental/

    WhizNDR- of #debian-kde has made some UBER-EXPERIMENTAL packages.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 00:57
    http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=1464
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 17:07
    Just as a warning, these debs are dog slow on my machine, celery 500 with 256 megs of ram. My machine would be unresponsive for quite awhile, and eventually it ate up all of my swap space, crashing my system. So they are not kidding when they say uber-experimental. If you need to get actual work done on your machine, avoid them.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 09:45
    I have used them since before I released them to the public for my everday work and have not one problem…I finally switched to Chris’ beta packages to help debug them…

    WhizNDR-

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 14:10
    Any chance we can get PPC versions of the .debs?
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 19:27
    I have no PPC to make the debs on or I would…

    Thanks,
    WhizNDR-

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 23:10
    A few things:
    #1 A little perspective here. KDE3 is still a “.0” release. To be perfectly honest, its probably not hurting any of us to not be using it at the moment.

    #2 So far as paying the maintainer, just tell me where. I’ve donated money to debian in the past, and if someone wants to set up a donation-basis subscription plan, I’d be more than happy to put up some cash.

    #3 I’m not a Debian maintainer, so PLEASE don’t take this as a bitch/moan/whatever. But, it DOES look bad for Debian when these packages aren’t released in a timely manner. My friends rag on me for using debian because the releases are always ridiculously out of date. So I tell them I use unstable and stay on the bleeding-edge. But when Slashdot is running stories all the time, discussing the fact that debs STILL aren’t available, there is a perception problem. I’m not even subscribed to the deb-kde list, but I have been reading the archives daily hoping to gleam tidbits of info about when these things would be out. The day KDE3 was officially released, there was a post on /. insinuating experimental debs would be available in the next day or two. Now, all the users get is stonewalling. No “help, I’m having problems here” or “I don’t have time to do that.” I’ve seen KDE developers offer to help, and maybe they were taken up on their offer off-list, but not publicly that I saw.

    Yes, the people doing this are doing a HELL of a job, and doing it for free. Nevertheless, being in a position such as theirs does bring with it responsibility. One of those responsibilities is to let its users know what’s going on. That doesn’t seem to be happening at the moment. A day or two was one thing, but this is stretching into weeks now. If he can’t get the KDE3 debs done in a timely fashion (perfectly understandable considering Woody release and his upcoming exams) he needs to delegate and ask for help.

    Erik Severinghaus
    ezs@email.unc.edu

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 00:18
    So the volunteers better get cracking so that your friends don’t rag on you?
    I’ve read lots of excuses here but that one typifies them all, and takes the cake.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 03:03
    No, you misunderstand, and mischaracterized my post. The bottom line is, Debian is PERCEIVED to be way behind the times. I fear that the current problems with KDE are simply adding more fuel to that fire. I love debian, and I just would hate to see it be considered marginalized because of issues such as this.

    Erik Severinghaus
    ezs@email.unc.edu

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:38
    “debian kiddie bites off more responsibility than he can chew, film at 11”

    This ain’t news, this is just how debian is.

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    Subject: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:20
    I’m assuming that KDE3 is not destined for Woody. While I don’t mean to complain and cause further resententment for the packagers, this will only stengthen the “Debian is never up to date” argument. It’s a shame that a such a small package in the grand scheme of things has caused all this trouble.

    I don’t read the mailing lists so I’m not sure what the problem is. Anyone care to summarise exactly why Debian is having so many problems with this while others distros (apparently) haven’t?

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 08:11
    this will only stengthen the “Debian is never up to date” argument.

    So what? Do you want a good system, or increased market share? If people can’t see how much better Debian is that other distros then who cares? Its a better system and that’s what matters, not how many people use it. All the commercial linux distros _have_ to get KDE3.0 in ASAP if they want to keep their users, unfortunately (for them) that is exactly why a Debian system works so much better. Debian can take a little time to put together a system that actually works, rather than just throwing in some stuff and leaving the users screwed (I gave up redhat because of the _hell_ I went through trying to get KDE2 to work). It also really doesn’t matter if KDE3 goes into woody. No one who craves the latest software uses Debian stable, it is if you want a rock solid system and don’t need the bleeding egde stuff. KDE3 will be out soon enough and I promise that you will quickly forget the month or so that you were so terribly deprived of the latest KDE.

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 09:18
    Whats the estimated lifetime of stable? 1 Year? 2? Thats how long the stable release will be missing KDE3, right? Thats my point. I can wait another 2 months or whatever for it, but in 6 months when someone downloads Debian stable and KDE3 isn’t in it, it just gives a bad impression. And it *does* matter. Any new user is another potential helper. Turning them away because they want to use the latest desktop is hardly good PR.
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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Integral
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 13:21
    Shovelling KDE3 into stable is probably among the most efficient ways you could push its release date back further.

    Daniel

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 12:56
    In my experience all linux users eventually come to Debian (not Alan Cox though =/). When they come to debian, they are hard-boiled, good users. This is what (IMO) makes Debian good.
    Of course there are some trolls (debian-devel XF4.2.0 thread..), but they’re minority.
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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 18:40
    In my experience all linux users eventually come to *BSD.
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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 01:05
    Generally within a couple of weeks.

    Then a few weeks later they realize that it isn’t any better and head back to linux.

    This is usually the stage where they feel it is important to run apache, bind, telnet, ftp, and an SQL server on their home machine.

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 08:25
    Or just want a proper system…, yea πŸ™‚

    I’ve yet to try a *BSD that satisfies me…. and I doubt I ever will.

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 22:47
    > I’ve yet to try a *BSD that satisfies me….

    Then, you’ve yet to try a *BSD.

    > and I doubt I ever will.

    Good. We really don’t want *you* as a user anyway.

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 20:16
    Ya BSD isn’t flawless. On a single processor intel machine it’s pretty good. If you leave that it starts getting hairy. NetBSD does support lots of archs, but at the expense of other features so it’s still flawed.
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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 13:37
    The loud and the idiots that called them self Debian Developers is the only reason I keep my seft away from Debian, there are a lot of good Debian Developers out there, just these few idiots that ruin the good name of Debian, but that’s just my opinion πŸ™‚
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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Integral
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 03:01
    It’s a shame that a such a small package

    You’re kidding, right?

    I don’t read the mailing lists so I’m not sure what the problem is.

    Personally, I don’t see any problem here. KDE3 isn’t going into woody, so it isn’t critical to get packages ready before, say, 5/1. (yes, a few “gimme the latest c00l toy NOW NOW NOW!!!!” types might get upset, but that’s just too bad)

    Daniel

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 11:56
    You’re kidding, right?

    Okay, bad choice of words on my part. What I meant to say was that KDE is only a small part of Debian as a whole.

    Personally, I don’t see any problem here.

    Well of course there’s a problem, otherwise this article wouldn’t be posted. Whether it’s a relevent problem is another (debateable) question.

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Integral
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 13:36
    Okay, bad choice of words on my part. What I meant to say was that KDE is only a small part of Debian as a whole.

    Unfortunately, it is still a large and complex package, many other packages depend on it, and (evidently) its users are more impatient than average.

    Well of course there’s a problem,

    Well, I suppose you could say that: the article was posted about a problem. What I meant to say is that I don’t see any problem with KDE3 taking until post-woody to package.

    Daniel

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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:35
    Because the other distros are staffed with professionals.
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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 23:09
    Id like to see you do better.
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    Subject: Re: Woody?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 23:52
    I don’t have to do better. See in the market economy it works like this: I do what i *can* (want to) do better. In exchange i get money, which i in turn exchange with the professional linux distributors for an up to date packaging of linux and accompanying programs.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:04
    Oh well what do you expect when you use a distro maintained by a bunch of high school kids. duh.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:18
    Well the price is right….
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 18:31
    Yes – I also waiting for KDE3 to show up in Debian. But I don’t say that other people (Chirs in this case) have to spend all their free time to make me happy. It’s fine for me to wait till it’s done (but having an approximate schedule would be nice anyway). But what I don’t like are the reactions that come up when questions about KDE3 are posed.
    On April 9th Chris wrote at kde-devel:

    “However, I will make preliminary debs available once I have finished packaging kdebase (the last package, which I am currently working on). If anyone has questions please keep it on the list if possible.”

    I was pleased to hear that. But after that there was not a single mail from Chris again. Since the above quoted mail sounded pretty promising many people expected KDE3 debs to show up really soon. Would it have been really that much of a problem to write another mail and tell everybody that problems of some sort have shown up and KDE3 debs will be delayed some more? Instead of that there was nothing – no official comment at all.

    And there is something else I don’t really understand. If Chris has problems getting kdebase (or whatever else the problem is) packaged – why didn’t he ask for help? As a matter of fact help was offered by people who, in my point of view, seem to be pretty competent. For example Ellis Whitehead wrote on kde-devel:

    “Is there any way that we can help ease the process? There are a number of kde developers that use debian who regularly compile from cvs source — some of us might be able to help keep the scripts current through the development phases.”

    Once again – I don’t say that anybody (Chris or anybody else) has to make available debs right away. Packaging takes it’s time – we all know that and all of us appreciate the really great work all of the debian maintainers are doing! But what I’ve to criticize a bit is the lack of information. It wouldn’t hurt if there were some more information about the schedule, problems that have shown up and so on. Acting silently and not saying a word doesn’t seem to be a good strategy to me. And in addition to that one should think about taking help that’s offered if one’s not able to handled everything alone.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: JAM
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 19:16
    I was pleased to hear that. But after that there was not a single mail from Chris again. Since the above quoted mail sounded pretty promising many people expected KDE3 debs to show up really soon.

    Why? Kdebase is really huge and Chris has splitted it even more than the previous KDE maintainers. I know (for #debian-kde) that he has kdebase almost done, but he his having problems with kicker and the appletproxy.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: JAM
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 01:56
    Ok, I can confirm that I’m running KDE3 with Chris debian packages without a single problem. These are the pre-testing packages and I’ve to made some links (they have some other bugs also, and still require you to completely remove kde 2.2 from your system prior to installing them) but apart from that they work very well. So yes, KDE 3.0 testing packages are _really_ close now. If you want to test the pre-test (:) packages go to #debian-kde and ask ‘calc’ (Chris) for them.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 17:47
    Err, I meant TrollTech’s Linux OS. Doh! πŸ™‚
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 17:37
    Hey no problem, I don’t use QT’s Linux OS anyways…

    I wish KDE packages were in their own section in dselect so they’d be easier for me to avoid.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 15:31
    how about alien kde*.rpm ? would this work ?
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 16:13
    I know of at least one working package for kdebase…actually the person who made that package also provides packages like kdeaddons, kdeartwork, kdemultimedia and kdenetwork. I don’t know how much he changed the debian/ subdir in KDE, but I’ve read some positive reports about his packages in the last few days. If the current maintainer of KDE in Debian wants to take a look, search for my (=Jonathan Brugge) posting on kde-devel, you’ll find a link there (the site includes a short readme too). All others: please don’t slashdot/debianplanet that server too much, it’s a private server and it’s not mine so I don’t want to get in trouble because the hoster finds out that people download for some GB/day from his server :)…

    I don’t know how of how much use the script can be, as I don’t know the current state of the .deb for kdebase. Certainly the package that’s online now doesn’t separate Konqueror, it’s just a one-in-all package of kdebase.

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    Subject: WTF?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 15:26
    What is this in reference to? Why is debianPlanet suddenly telling me to “go make your own…before abusively posting”? I haven’t abusively posted about anything, and neither have the rest of the readers here, I’m willing to bet. Was this article intended as reply to some comment I’m unaware of?
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    Subject: Re: WTF?
    Author: Joy
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 18:50
    You’re right. I’ve amended it slightly to compensate for this.
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    Subject: Re: WTF?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 17:21
    It does not reply to any single instance, but rather many people that have been complaining about KDE3.0 in the Debian community. Various things have been said on IRC, mailing lists, and forums such as this one, many of which are abusive and they just want to remind people thet they should be helping rather than bitching.
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    Subject: Re: WTF?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 17:44
    A little background would have been nice. Some of us debian users aren’t active members of the community – we just use the OS, and peruse sites like this for relavent news. Too many non-sequitor insiders-only articles like this one and I’ll just go elsewhere for my debian news…
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    Subject: What disturbs me the most…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 15:25
    is the unserious behaviour in #debian-kde.
    > When will the kde3 debs be ready?
    Reply> When they are ready.

    Come on. That answer is perhaps justified when actually developing software, not when packaging them. Anybody can make a approximation about your free time, size and complexity of the problem. For
    almost two weeks ago the topic was: KDE3 will be ready very soon. Then it changed to: kdebase and i18n left. Then it changed to: don’t ask or we will kill you (something like that), everybody can se what it is now. And now they say he has exams in 2 weeks…well kde3 didn’t get out today but for *two weeks ago*. I, for sure would have appriciated a rough answer like: it will be ready in june, at least you would know the situation and wouldn’t get disappointed every day. Kde3 packagers are doing this voluntary and I appriciate that, but when it takes so long time to get one of the most important packages to be ready, I must ask my self: is this the best debian can do?

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    Subject: Wow, four weeks of waiting?
    Author: elcrago
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:44
    You suffer so much for your distribution.

    What’s the rush? What is so urgent about getting KDE 3.0? I’m stunned that Debian stays as up-to-date as it does while providing everything else it provides.

    This is volunteer work. Would you ask why the free soup line is so slow? Sure you’re hungry. We’re all hungry. If you’re in such a hurry, get a job and buy your own damn soup.

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    Subject: Re: Wow, four weeks of waiting?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 10:14
    Are you suggesting he should buy windows?
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    Subject: Re: What disturbs me the most…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 16:31
    Why doesn’t everyone stop whining and do something about the problem instead? If you are so desperate to try out KDE 3.0, nobody is stopping you from compiling your own. I have both KDE 2.2 and KDE 3.0 on the same box and yes … I built KDE on my own. It’s dead simple if you use the included kde-build script. So guys … please stop this bashing and start compiling your own KDE!
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    Subject: Compile from source? What about APT?
    Author: CaPS
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 19:37
    We have this wonderfull system called APT and now you tell us not to use it ? What kinda logic is that..

    I can understand that KDE3 is quite the pain to package, but for heaven’s sake! Every selfrespecting distribution had it done when KDE 3.0 was announced. That’s why KDE prereleases source to packagers, to make us – the users – happy. Use that ‘advantage’!

    I used to work with Slackware 8.0, then I got into GNOME and the whole Evolution thing. However, since Slackware’s packaging system is less that favourable Ximian doesn’t support Slackware (or didn’t, at the time). So I moved to Debian, so I could install it all without a hitch ..

    After a while, I got sick of GNOME (but fell in love with Debian), it felt inconsistent.. Moving (back) to KDE (2.2) felt like quite the relieve. However, now there’s this new toy in town that, how childish it may sound, I ‘d like to play with! I’m somewhat busy, I don’t have time or resources to compile KDE, I need to be able to actively use my machine during daytime. Compiling KDE3 takes about a working day on my machine ..

    *sigh*
    Again, I understand it’s a tough (unpaid) job to do. But if you can’t, let someone else – who can – do it. I could build my own .deb’s from KDE sources but that’s not why I – and presumably many others – got into Debian!

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    Subject: Re: Compile from source? What about APT?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:48
    Just for you to know, and don’t feel that
    much frustrated… it took 2 days on my
    K6 350 Mz to compile koffice only…
    πŸ˜‰

    Some others may do worse, i suppose… but
    i don’t even know if they will be able to
    run kde… but this is off topic,

    πŸ™‚

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    Subject: Re: Compile from source? What about APT?
    Author: cosmo
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:52
    What, were you translating it to machine code by hand? On my Celeron 433 (with lots of RAM, admitted) it takes a few hours (with X, kde and about 20 apps running). kdelibs+kdebase take a few hours as well.
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    Subject: Re: Compile from source? What about APT?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 05:56
    The key really is the RAM. The amount of available memory matters much more than sheer processor speed when compiling.
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    Subject: Re: What disturbs me the most…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 17:08
    Why compile when they say things as: it will be ready very soon, or 90% of kde3 is ready. Ofcourse now I know better.
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    Subject: Re: What disturbs me the most…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 06:54
    I used to say that – you always think you’re that close, that you only have one more head to cut off, and then 2 more spring up. It’s like the chunk of meat the greyhounds run after.
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    Subject: Re: What disturbs me the most…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 15:48
    Ok, KDE3 will be ready in June.
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    Subject: Re: What disturbs me the most…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 16:03
    :thumbs up: for a mature reaction!
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    Subject: Re: What disturbs me the most…
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 15:55
    I dont belive you. Try xmas.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 15:20
    Guys, how about everyone stop being sods and /join #debian-kde (irc.openprojects.net) and actually _help_ the poor overworked guy?

    –Dan C., aka crimsun (OPN)

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 09:54
    Am I supposed to be a mindreader?
    Two weeks ago: kde3 debs are almost ready.
    Until today: No explanation/statement/response.
    I guess I am a sod then.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Caoilte
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 14:31
    Jeez, if you’re gonna blame anyone blame Ivan. He was the miracle worker that actually packaged KDE in the first place.

    I can see why he resigned now though.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 14:23
    Two things:
    a) if he can’t make them, someone else should.

    b) maybe if he got off his ass and actually did something worth paying for, eg kde3.0 and constant updates, then maybe we would all get together and pay him..

    geee, lazy sods.

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 16:27
    If you want it that bad, why don’t you just compile it, you lazy sod…
    jeez, what a jackass!
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 13:44
    what are your rates?
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 12:48
    So, if het gets paid, he doesn’t have exams ?

    Anybody wants to tell him about the importance of a good education ???

    πŸ˜‰

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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: machuidel
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 11:48
    Where can I find the Debian
    patch for KDE3? I’d like to
    see what I can do.
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    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 06:53
    See http://calc.cx/kde.txt; most of it’s in CVS.
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    Subject: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 11:28
    The right way is to have a packager that can say: “Hey I’m having exams can other one adopt kde packages for a while, please ?”. Not just jave us waiting and waiting and let us the only way we have to know what happen “TO ASK”, in debianplanet, in debian-kde list or whatever… and I dont like to see the same packagers who havent got time to package speding time to embarrassing the users because they ask… so, If you cant manage your time or at least let others to do your work when you can ( with the previus ask, two weeks before its right ) dont be a deb packager…

    An Embarrassed Anonymous

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 14:06
    The message in all this is: why don’t *you* do it? I don’t see any debs from you! Sheez! Bad!
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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/05/01 – 02:46
    Sounds a more and more familiar message.

    Why not point debian.org to linuxfromscratch..

    …hang on, I guess you didn’t have time, I’ll piss off and do it myself… ;o)

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 22:48
    Hey.

    If you have time to post an inane comment, you have time to package it.

    What’s the *&@! holdup???

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 06:21
    I’m not packaging it, Chris is.
    Chris hasn’t posted here because he’s actually been busy packaging it; I’m running his packages on my laptop, and they’re great.
    Most of the posting has been done by tools who would rather flame than help, even if the help is as simple as testing and giving feedback.
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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 01:01
    hehehe

    well I have heard all this nice stuff about debian and I have been looking for another distro but I want KDE 3.0 and I come here and your like fizza so I think I’ll find another distro. fizza back at ya!

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 04:44
    And why don’t you stop speaking as if you have _anything_ to do with the KDE debs!

    All anyone hears from you is condescending bullshit when as far as I can tell, you don’t do shit… I know you work on Kopete and you _were_ trying to maintain some kde debs, but why don’t you let calc speak for himself!

    You are simply no longer relevant.

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 06:51
    Funny that everyone that posts this sort of stuff posts anonymously.

    Have the balls to show who you are.

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 09:10
    And why should I do that? I am not trying to draw attention to myself unlike some. Fact is this thread, no this entire article is _your_ doing. You did not need to post this article nor did you need to spread this shit to all the numerous places I’ve seen your drivel.

    Let’s be _real_ clear: I am fine with waiting for the debs, in fact I’m perfectly content with calc’s work and the effort he is making. My _only_ problem as regards debian and kde is you and your ridiculous flames towards perfectly innocent end-users and other developers/packagers who’ve offered an opinion or tried to help. The fact is this is a pattern with you.

    I’ve seen you belittle people on IRC for innocently asking about the status of the packages, flame people on the kde-list for being so bold as to offer a suggestion. You posted this article and then proceeded to flame even further in numerous sub-threads (see below for Clarification, Interesting). You’ve claimed that the debian end-users were responsible for driving you away from packaging KDE when in fact your were just plain unsuccessful. It’s much easier to blame everyone else, when we had nothing to do with your hangup. You claim that this article was prompted by a rash of angry emails, but I find this highly circumspect given your inclination to flame wildly at the most innocent of suggestions. Take for instance this post on kde-devel:

    “Aren’t you being cabalistic by not making and releasing debs yourself!
    Cathedral stylez!! Bring on the b4z44r y0!

    Maybe you’re unaware that Chris’s final exams are in 2 weeks. Whatever
    the case, I suggest you check kdebase out of CVS and help him by
    building the debs yourself. I look forward to either a retraction of
    this email from you, or your kdebase debs.

    Scant regards,
    Daniel (who is no longer actively involved in KDE3 packaging)”

    Let’s put this into context. The guy was simply suggesting that perhaps packaging kde for debian was best tackled as a team effort. That’s all! He was not insulting Chris and he most certainly had nothing to say about you, but nevertheless you proceed to insult him and proclaim your independence from packaging kde, as if his suggestion was to outrageous for you to have anything to do with debian-kde again.

    And now we have this beautiful article where you tell everyone else they should just package kde themselves, like we’re all hassling you. Once again, I would not be posting this right now if it weren’t for your useless articles and rantings about debian-kde packaging all over the net. Now lie in the bed you’ve made. Cheers πŸ™‚

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 12:25
    Anonymous troll:
    First off, I think *you’re* trying to draw attention to yourself. I’ve posted over a hundred stories to DP (151, to be exact), and this is only one of them, in response to what is the largest number of submissions I’ve ever seen on a single topic, a lot of them abusive. I still find it interesting that you refuse to identify yourself. Why? Because you know you’re flaming and trolling?

    Secondly, I wasn’t abusive at all on kde-devel, nor was I abusive on IRC. The example you provided showed a) me pointing out that I had nothing to do with KDE3 packaging, despite your protests that I continually do the contrary, and b) was half-joking (the first paragraph). He was calling Chris cabalistic for not releasing his debs, and I made a joke to refute his point. Obviously you were born with malformed humour glands.

    As for the reason I left KDE, if you did your homework, you’d know that I agreed in-principle to hand over to Chris around December or January … it was quite some time ago. Basically, I wasn’t dealing with the amount of interaction I had to do, and a lot of ungrateful users (*cough*likeyou*cough*). The reason why I stopped doing KDE3 was because Chris told me his debs would be ready any time soon, and they had numerous problems. Instead of spending a couple of hours fixing it all up (usr/sbin was a one-liner), I decided to just wait for Chris’s debs; that’s all. The /usr/sbin part was a factor, but a small one; I would’ve fixed them up and re-released them, had Chris told me he was too busy to do anything.

    As for this article, it’s telling *all* *who* *bitch* at Chris to create their own debs. The silent majority are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and getting on with life. There’s only a vocal but incredibly stupid minority (i.e. DebianPlanet) who run around screaming “d3Wd!!!!!!!11 3y3 k4nn0t l1v3 with0uT m3H kde3 d3bZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”. Yes, that means you. I was making the point that Chris is volunteering. So far, most of the people loudly bitching on DP haven’t given *anything* back to Chris for his hard work, except stupid random bitching. I was making the point that, as Chris is a volunteer, I have as much right to bitch at and abuse anyone else who bitches at and abuses Chris. He’s a friend of mine, and I stick up for my friends; just because Chris is the KDE maintainer doesn’t change that simple and basic fact.

    Even more scant regards,
    Daniel (who still isn’t involved in KDE3 packaging)

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 22:58
    (BTW, I’m posting anonymously because, well, I’m lazy. I suppose, in DanielS terms, that makes me a fuckwit.)

    I’ve seen nothing but immature flaming so far, Daniel. Care to explain why you’re bearing this cross despite your non-involvement in KDE packaging (which you’ve taken SEVERAL opportunities to explain, thankyouverymuch.)

    Quite frankly, the attitude reeks. It’s what’s driven me away from Debian on several occasions. If it’s not coming out fast enough for ya, go off and make yer own.

    If you think the solution is to have 100+ people building their own packages, it’s not they who are the fuckwits.

    The beauty of Debian is that it’s a group effort, and having package maintainers ensures that there’s something of a standard way of installing/upgrading packages. Simply telling people “go off and build it yerself d00dz” isn’t constructive, and isn’t terribly mature.

    If you’re so concerned about it, why not get involved in package-maintaining again, and organize a team of maintainers?

    Just a thought.

    –Shane Simmons
    regeya@earthlink.net

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 06:18
    (BTW, I’m posting anonymously because, well, I’m lazy. I suppose, in DanielS terms, that makes me a fuckwit.)
    Not true – you at least have the balls to identify yourself at the bottom, unlike our Anonymous Coward, who is an AC in every sense of the word.
    I’ve seen nothing but immature flaming so far, Daniel. Care to explain why you’re bearing this cross despite your non-involvement in KDE packaging (which you’ve taken SEVERAL opportunities to explain, thankyouverymuch.)
    Do *you* care to explain why *you’re* here, despite your admitted non-involvement in Debian? Old habits die hard, I guess.

    Quite frankly, the attitude reeks. It’s what’s driven me away from Debian on several occasions. If it’s not coming out fast enough for ya, go off and make yer own.
    And what’s the problem with that? I don’t see any. Chris has an equal right to demand packages from *you*. Very few maintainers get paid, and those who do are accountable only to their employers. No-one in Debian is accountable to you, unless you pay them. If you don’t like that, pay them. What I’m trying to say is that, by your logic, I can demand XFree86 4.2 debs from you.
    The beauty of Debian is that it’s a group effort, and having package maintainers ensures that there’s something of a standard way of installing/upgrading packages. Simply telling people “go off and build it yerself d00dz” isn’t constructive, and isn’t terribly mature.
    Flaming those who are trying to make the packages (i.e. Chris), isn’t at all mature, either.
    If you’re so concerned about it, why not get involved in package-maintaining again, and organize a team of maintainers?
    I tried to maintain something in a team, once. It doesn’t work when you’re pulling in different directions. Out of curiousity, would you volunteer to join this team?
    As for why I don’t get involved in packaging again, I’m having a lot more fun upstream. Packaging isn’t a challenge anymore – it’s complicated, but when it all comes down to it, it’s really more of the same. Upstreaming, OTOH, is a challenge, and I enjoy it.
    Regards,
    Daniel

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 18:31
    “Secondly, I wasn’t abusive at all on kde-devel, nor was I abusive on IRC.”

    You want another example, how about this recent gem from debian-kde#: In response to a suggestion about issuing an announcement over the new experimental debs you replied, “… needs more testing before the fuckwits take over :”

    Need I say more. This is yet another example of your attitude towards everyday ordinary end-users. With that post you’ve dismissed everyone who posts to debian planet as a fuckwit. If you think that then why do you even post here?

    “me pointing out that I had nothing to do with KDE3 packaging, despite your protests that I continually do the contrary”

    LOL, I am all to aware that you have absolutely _nothing_ to do with kde packaging. It appears you are to deft to hear me say that repeatedly. Now, if you would simply realize that and quit posting these stupid articles/trolls on irc, kde-dev and here, we’d have no problem.

    “Basically, I wasn’t dealing with the amount of interaction I had to do, and a lot of ungrateful users (*cough*likeyou*cough*).”

    I’ve never had any interaction with you whatsoever other than this.

    “As for this article, it’s telling *all* *who* *bitch* at Chris to create their own debs.”

    Why don’t you let Chris take care of himself. I don’t believe Chris needs you or anyone else to fight his battles for him. Why don’t you look back and ponder how productive this article and all your numerous other trolls have been.

    I guess I shouldn’t expect anymore from you. You just betray your immaturity as a sixteen year old child.

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    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 06:10
    You want another example, how about this recent gem from debian-kde#: In response to a suggestion about issuing an announcement over the new experimental debs you replied, “… needs more testing before the fuckwits take over :”
    I like it how you cleverly omitted the “;)” at the end, which indicated it was a joke. Real cute.
    I think a lot of DP users are tools who demand too much of maintainers; this much is on record. Much like Slashdot users, except that there’s less of them. I’ve never said that *all* DP users are fuckwits, ever.
    As for “betraying my immaturity”, doesn’t that really mean that I’m demonstrating maturity? Check your double negatives!
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/05/02 – 01:17
    As for “betraying my immaturity”, doesn’t that really mean that I’m demonstrating maturity? Check your double negatives!

    I’m afraid betraying has two meanings, and one of them is revealing; c.f. betraying his true identity. Nice try tho’

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 21:59
    “The message in all this is: why don’t *you* do it?”

    Becuase he didn’t sign up to be a big cool maintainer when he knew he wouldn’t have time…

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 03:43
    You can’t ask anybody to spend more time than they choose on Debian.
    If it was an unpaid full time job or nothing, we’d have no maintainers.
    Of all things, please don’t insult the guy with no grounds. I could just as easily say to you “you won’t do it because you expect everything to be done for you” but that might not be true. Assumptions, people!
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 08:44
    I am in general quite pleased with the work done on KDE in Debian, but the KDE3 packages are turning into a bit of a farce. It is now two weeks after the official stable source was released, and there are only unofficial, experimental packages to show for.

    This comes as even more of a surprise when KDE developers who are Debian users have offered to help. If calc has final exams in two weeks, then he should delegate. I also have final exams in four weeks, and so I haven’t got involved in any major projects…

    Other than the time criticism, the Debian KDE maintainers are doing an OK job. Just delegate and speed things up a little please…

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/04/20 – 23:51
    How about XFree86? Now almost 3 months behind.

    At least in this case, the problem seems to be that people get so concerned that their packages will get left out of the “stable” release that they neglect the “unstable” release. After doing that they’re behind once “stable” is out, and have to play catch-up.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: lordsutch
    Date: Monday, 2002/04/22 – 09:08

    How about XFree86? Now almost 3 months behind.

    Well, the problem there is that if Branden uploaded 4.2.0-1, and then discovered a problem with the version in testing, he couldn’t upload a fix that could go into testing.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: The polite way
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 00:46
    Precisely. These people like DanielS are taking away my faith in Debian big time. Gentoo is sounding nice. I thought they were more intelligent than this.
    [ Please login, or register ]

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: hildeb
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 07:31
    Well, OK. Where to get the packages for testing then?
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Funny
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 21:22
    After reading this at about 8 AM today <b>I finally ditched Debian <b> and booted OpenBSD for the first (and probably only) time. Guess I am not the only one.

    Greetings,
    John.

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    Subject: Re: Funny
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/05/03 – 16:06
    if the reason why you were using Debian was a “pretty” dektop ala KDE, then you made a right move to switch, since Debian wasn’t the right distro for you in that case. however, having KDE 3 would be nice to show off free software to win/mac users, but it’s more of a side effect then a feature. Debian rules for other reasons then “pretty” desktop.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Funny
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/05/01 – 02:41
    Call that a strop?

    I set fire to my debian machines, shot my pet hamsters “deb” and “Ian”, stripped naked and while obviously “excited” (fnarr fnarr) ran down the street saying “This is only woody I need!!”

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    Subject: Re: Funny
    Author: xm
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/19 – 05:59
    Well, good for you!
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 21:17
    Yep,
    once in a while I come back to DebPlan to see what’s going on since I switched to BSD.
    It is posts like this (and the responses) that make me feel very comfortable to have left the linux world one year ago.
    Not meant to be flamebait… just an honest oppinion.
    Oh, BTW, I really liked apt-get. Except for all the crap it also installed that wasn’t needed for anything. I contributed a bit, but there was just too much incest. Now I do for *BSD, more fun, more professional.

    Until next time…
    Han

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    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 08:50
    Heh, I installed Mandrake just to try out KDE3. Unfortunaly compared to debian I think mandrake sucks, so I deleted it. But I’m willing to try OpenBSD or such, but I wonder what packaging system BSD:s use, is it any good – is it easy to update software?

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:09
    OpenBSD
    upgrade port: make deinstall; make install

    That’s it.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 06:06
    So your using it to make yourself feel more ‘l337’, seems much more professional

    i’ll be looking into it

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: dar
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:41
    Oh please, of course it was flamebait.
    I don’t get your point though. I just went over to the freebsd site. It still has KDE 2.2.2. Which *BSD are you using that has already updated to 3.0?
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/04/18 – 22:41
    Did you look? http://freebsd.kde.org/

    Ya dumbass!

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:10
    OpenBSD
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: OpenBSD
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:07
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 00:14
    Sounds like it must be OpenBSD.

    The thought of NetBSD updating so soon is utterly absurd.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: Once in a while I come back here….
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:16
    …. and we are all so proud of you!

    Way to go!

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: KDE 3.0 – port and packages for OpenBSD out !!!!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 21:09
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0 – port and packages for OpenBSD out !!!!
    Author: dar
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 22:47
    Really where? I looked in ports and packages for 3.0 and no joy.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0 – port and packages for OpenBSD out !!!!
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/17 – 16:07
    snapshots = 3.1 beta
    also in -current ports
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 14:31
    They are not available yet.
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 17:46
    And round the circle we go again, yet one more time.

    No wonder people are complaining: neither official or do-it-yourself packages are available.

    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 08:21
    www.manwhore.com
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 10:57
    Thanks for the link !!!
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: hildeb
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 14:08
    Which link?
    [ Please login, or register ]

     

    Subject: Re: KDE 3.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/04/16 – 08:24
    It’s better than I expected!
    [ Please login, or register ]

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