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    Netscape package orphaned?
    Submitted by DonDiego on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 – 12:34
    The Netscape packages are in a sad state of disrepair. 4.79 is current but sid is still at 4.77. There are bugs filed about this:#111063 and #119071, but then again there are a lot of bugs filed on the Netscape packages, all ancient and left unfixed. IIRC there were security problems with 4.77 and 4.78. Is the package orphaned or is this part of the grand scheme of things?

    I am not whining, I want to help and will gladly volunteer time to this endeavour.

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    Subject: flash vulnerable
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/23 – 13:34
    Actually flash is vulnerable in the 4.0r12 version that comes with Netscape 4.77 and 4.79. See bug #81508 for the details and install yourself flash 5 or delete ShockwaveFlash.class and libflashplayer.so from the /usr/lib/netscape/477/netscape/plugins directory.
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    Subject: The matter is cleared
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/20 – 11:32
    Ryan Murray, the Netscape maintainer, answered my questions in a private email exchange. He was waiting for CJK translation, is working on 4.79 packages right now and no, there are no security problems.

    I wish to apologize for taking this issue to a public forum before contacting Ryan Murray directly. That was a stupid course of action and I feel sorry for it.

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    Subject: Re: The matter is cleared
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 15:04
    Better to have asked and got something done than let it slip thru the cracks….

    One still wonders what full-out NS 6.2 doesn’t have that 4.7x doesn’t, but it still points up something I’ve seen twice in a week… whenever somebody asks a question, umpteen zillion people rush to post the workaround, but only one or two seem to want to actually answer the question to *fix* the problem. I know that Linux is supposed to be a community of sneaky bastards, but sometimes you have to actually do someting, eh? There are still things in this world that all the free software, do-it-yourself ways in the world can’t do… and until we achieve world domination, we have to live with that and answer the gent’s question instead of trying to send him on a wild goose chase.

    yahoo!warpeightbot

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    Subject: constructive criticism should be welcome
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/20 – 08:24
    (I have nothing to do with the package)

    I have to say that the posters comments are constructive in bringing this matter to attention of a wider audience, therefore the problem has better chance of being fixed.

    It is bad that the poster feels he has to justify his comments (I am not whining…)

    It would be better if people didnt feel intimidated to the state they they need to defend constructive criticism. I wonder what problems people dont mention because its not worth putting up with the usual flames.

    I do understand why the poster put it in there though, the behaviour on the mailing lists is shocking, people always trying to shout others into submission.

    Such an environment is not conducive to encouraging co-operation.

    Thriving on chaos maybe…

    P.S. Im glad i can post this anon, im sure someone would want to chew my head of for expressing these thoughts in public

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: iago
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 22:29
    Hi all, long time user, first time poster.

    What I’m seeing here is two things:

    1) People arguing over the usefulness of Netscape supplemented by facts regarding Netscape’s conformance to W3M and CSS standards .

    2) Valid alternatives to Netscape (Galeon/Mozilla/clones, Konqueror, lynx) and their not-so-interesting personal stories about such projects.

    You are all making very elegant and valid points that have nothing to do with the question being asked. A VERY important piece of software is not being updated in Debian. It needs to be kept in check for Debian to be successful. I think having a working version of Netscape is more important than having the latest and greatest Window Manager installed or 14th build of X, 4.1.1. This is a program that people use. I saw a comment saying ‘people want just want a web browser.’ Thats wrong, people want familiarity. Netscape is familiar.

    Netscape seems to crash on me hourly, the window hangs and my CPU goes to 99%. It really pisses me off, I have a script that kills hung Netscape processes. But. I don’t have the hardware right now to use Galeon or Konq. So, behold, I am a Netscape user and I would really like to see it updated to the point where it just crashes on me daily.

    Hell, I’d take over the package, but there is the whole issue of me not even being remotely qualified (details.) I don’t mean to rant, but I have seen little along the lines of “Yes, I will take the responsibility for the good of all that is Debian. I will volunteer for the daunting task of being the Netscape maintainer.” I’d do it but I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

    I love Debian. It offers the BEST of what Linux is. You are all sold on it too, else you wouldn’t be reading this. A few weeks ago, I saw a question posted on this site that asked something like, “Hi, I’m a newb, How can I help Debian?” I saw a bunch of results that said ‘contribute patches’ and add bug reports.

    Maybe a good question would be, what skills and qualifications are necessary to become a package maintainer. I would love to take a project on, but I don’t think I have the computing resources (I run an x86/SPARC outfit, and don’t have PPC/strongarm/etc) I do have the time to learn though. I think tonight I’ll draft a question to those ends. There are a bunch of projects that aren’t overly complex that are orphaned, do you need a love of the program to maintain it, or just the proper build techniques and bug testing procedures. If such a question has been asked (I didn’t bother searching) my apologies kindly disregard this minirant and I’ll read up tonight.

    I’m getting tired.

    I’m going home now, its late.

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    Subject: Thanks for your insightful comment
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 23:19
    Finally somebody who answers my point. The package is part of Debian, there is no going back on this and we should be committed to its quality.

    I am willing to become the new Netscape maintainer if necessary. Maybe you can help me if you care about this. If you want to become a maintainer you should read the New Maintainers Guide and the Debian Policy manual (apt-get install maint-guide debian-policy). There has been a Debian Planet HOWTO on Becoming a Debian Developer.

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    Subject: netscape Depends: galeon | konqueror | mozilla-browser
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 20:55
    Why not just making netscape be a wrapper package?

    Most new people that come to Debian have used netscape on another GNU/Linux systems and just want a browser, but they don’t really care if it is netscape or not.

    A netscape package that depends on galeon | konqueror | mozilla-browser could be created.

    Then it could tell the user to use this or that free browser or just ln -s mozilla netscape.

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    Subject: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 15:31
    Seriously, I stopped using Netscape long ago. If
    anything, I could understand packaging Netscape
    6.2 in non-free, although I would have no use
    for that myself. Please tell me, what does
    Netscape 4.x offer to you? Especially with other
    great alternatives like Konqueror and Galeon that
    don’t take up as much memory as Netscape 6/Mozilla.
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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/01/29 – 02:14
    Easily the best (and least understood) feature in 4.x – Roaming Access. With Roaming Access, I can synchronize my options between my work and home machines quickly and simply.
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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/02/17 – 07:01
    I want my roaming access, goddammit! That allows me to take the stuff I’ve bookmarked at work home with me….

    That and one other thing: I tell my browsers to warn me if a cookie is being set. I like actually seeing what the cookie is, what it contains, where it’s coming from, where it may end up going to, and what kind of persistence it has (assuming any is present) before I accept it. Mozilla will NOT tell you the cookie’s contents–or it can, though only AFTER you’ve set it when it’s too late.

    Someone looked at the code; apparently there is a reason behind this which has slipped my mind. Setting per-site cookie policies if I remember correctly.

    Not to mention, the mention of RMS… do NOT get me started on him, especially in relation to Linux… Granted, he’s done a lot for the world of Free Software/open source (though he would probably deny the latter), but eh…

    However, to Mozilla’s credit, if my experience with the Windows versions is any indication of what I can look forward to when playing with the Linux version, it’s far faster and much more stable than it has ever been in recent memory.

    I’ll finish by noting that some of the folks here are trying to stir up a religious debate. I’m just stating my reasons why I continue to use it. Religion has nothing to do with it. I have been using Netscape for years; it’s the common thread that allows me to browse the web graphically on all of my systems regardless of operating system (with the notable exception of BeOS, but oh well).

    But I’ll be damned if I use that other browser from a certain Redmondian company–more because of the issues it has and continues to have than because it comes from that company (though given said company’s (now-stated) position on their products’ security, this is also a big factor as well).

    –Ian.

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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 20:23
    Netscape 4.x offers access to websites that for one reason or another refuse to render at all (not correctly render, render at all) under e.g. Opera. I use Opera cos it’s a great browser. Mozilla is fine under windows, but my experience has been that it is “sluggish” under Linux. Galeon doesn’t support all of the features I want. Konq requires lots of KDE junp, and it also doesn’t do everything I want. Netscape is a nice “lightweight” backup that I know will access all those stupid sites that still have prehistoric javascript and other idiosyncracies.
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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 17:02
    I use Mozilla nightlies most of the time, because I am involved in the Mozilla project. I need it for debugging purposes to compare if a site runs in 4.x but not in Moz when working on Mozilla bugs (sometimes to complain to the webmaster afterwards) and I would like to have 4.79 for this purpose. There are some sites that only work in 4.x for me and I use it on my P120-24MB Notebook.

    Apart from Acrobat Reader it is the only piece of non-free software I use and it is slowly fading. I still consider it a widely used package and would love to have it maintained better (especially if there are security implications). In its current state the package sheds a dim light on Debian, which prides itself on high quality packaging and careful maintenance.

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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 16:59
    I continue to use Mozilla because of the IMAP support in the mail client. I want a mail client that copies deleted emails to a Trash folder, tracks sent ones in another folder, and supports SSL connections.

    I tried Evolution, sylpheed, and others but they don’t seem to handle mail storage they way I want. I love galeon and would like to switch away from mozilla entirely. Can anyone suggest a way to get the functionality above?

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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/01/19 – 14:16
    Mozilla. It does all you’re asking for.
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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/18 – 04:49
    mutt
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    Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, why do you even WANT to use it?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/18 – 19:39
    Is there a graphic interface for mutt?

    I guess nice display of HTML message and graphic attachments would be another desired feature.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 02:12
    One thing that Netscape has that Mozilla is still lacking is good ldap support. For corporate users or people interfacing with LDAP addressbooks, Netscape is still a better choice. The mozilla team is working on this, and there is autocomplete for LDAP, but the Mozilla address book is still really weak. I don’t believe the 1.0 milestone is slated to have this yet — a good reason to have NS4.78 in woody.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/23 – 10:52
    Totally agree with this one. Actually mozilla mail client is still far behind from netscape 4.x.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 16:34
    But I think we’re talking about -browsers-. There
    are better, more appropriate programs to use for
    LDAP access.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/01/19 – 14:15
    I have to disagree with that. One major use of LDAP directories to store email addresses. It is a huge boon to be able to start typing in someone’s name in your email client and have it search an LDAP server for possible matches, autofilling the email address if it finds one.

    The whole point of LDAP is (easy) application integration.

    Mike.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 00:39
    Another package which is orphaned in sid is skipstone. The version in sid is not updated for a long time, and it does not even work now, as it is incompatible with newer releases of mozilla
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 21:08
    OK, we all know Netscape is nonfree and we all yearn for the day nobody has to use it anymore. For the moment being, it is still an important package, though. Can we have an ontopic discussion, please?
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 18:41
    I am a long time netscape user, but recently I switched to Konqueror, Mozilla and even Opera, depending on my mood. Most of the time I use Opera 6 TP2, because I really like the “mouse gestures”.
    I only use Netscape 4, when I like to view a site which uses javascript that all of the above mentioned browsers do not correctly support. This may happen once a month.
    Just my 2 cent.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 19:18
    If you like gestures you might be interested in the Optimoz project for Mozilla at mozdev.org.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 05:11
    How is it an important package? Everything that netscape can do is covered by either Mozilla, Konqueror, or both. Even plugins for netscape will run under Mozilla these days.

    Netscape *WAS* an important package a few years ago, because we didn’t have any worthwhile free web browsers. Now we do, so why keep using this old crutch?

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    Subject: according to vrms, netscape is non-free
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 18:12
    apt-get install vrms

    vrms

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: x3ja
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 13:15
    This doesn’t worry me too much to be honest. Netscape 4 doesn’t support some of the standard web technologies (like CSS IIRC) and certainly none of the new ones (XML, XSL etc).

    There’s a fight to not support these old browsers here:
    http://www.webstandards.org/upgrade/

    Personally I wouldn’t want to use it anyway – galeon rules!

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 16:59
    IIRC galeon is not in woody.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 00:09
    You’re wrong.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 03:15
    } } IIRC galeon is not in woody
    } You’re wrong.

    No, it really isn’t in woody:
    http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=galeon&searchon=names&subword=1&version=all&release=all

    If you would like it to be on your woody box though, do this: (this holds for any unstable package you want to run on woody)

    1) make sure your woody is up to date (ie you have a post-potato version of apt-get installed)

    2) add some lines to the end of your /etc/apt/sources.list, as so-
    deb ftp://ftp.us.debian.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free
    (and one for non-US for the mozilla crypto package, if you are not from the land of the unFree)
    Note ‘unstable’ replaces ‘woody’ in the dist name. You can keep the rest of your sources.list the same.

    3) I have the following in my /etc/apt/apt.conf file. Don’t know if it is needed but may be:
    APT
    {
    Default-Release “testing”;
    };

    4) apt-get update

    5) apt-get -t unstable install [PACKAGE]
    It’ll tell you that you need the latest mozilla & some new libs as well, or will let you know it depends on an earlier mozilla than the unstable one and will exit without doing a thing.

    6) I comment out the unstable line afterwards to speed up the normal apt-get update’s, and only uncomment when I need an unstable package.

    If it wants to upgrade half your system for a given unstable package, you may be better off installing from the debian source package, so as to build with all your old libraries.. but that’s a whole other micro-howto.

    galeon does rock, by the way.

    nadaou

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 14:07
    Netscape 4.7x is probably still the most widely used browser on all Unix platforms, so this is an important package for a lot of people. I use Mozilla all the time and am involved in the Mozilla project. But the old Netscape is still faster especially on lower end machines and some sites are designed specifically with Netscape 4.x in mind and do not work in Mozilla. Which makes it useful as a debugging tool if nothing else.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 15:04
    Netscape 4.7x is probably still the most widely used browser on all Unix platforms

    Are you sure that’s true? I don’t think I know anyone who uses it anymore.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 11:11
    We have 8 HPUX servers running that have netscape 4.77 installed. There will be no other browsers installed (company policy) so netscape is our only option.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 16:37
    Why are you running Netscape on a server in the
    first place? I’ve always been an advocate of
    “fuck company policy”, myself. I’ve never had
    to work for a company with such strict policies,
    however I would not be apt to let someone who
    knew less than I and made a poor decision like
    that tell me what I can or can not run on my own
    (administered, at least) computer/servers.

    Even more important, however–you just said you’re
    running HPUX, another non-free system, NOT Debian.
    So how is this even relevent to the conversation?

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 15:24
    Netscape is the only lightweight graphical Web browser which comes with Debian.

    Running Mozilla on a P120 with 48MB is… suicidal.

    It therefore is still in use.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 00:14
    Konqueror if you use KDE.

    Galeon if you use GNOME.

    Emacs W3 if you use Emacs.

    I’ve run all of those in less capable environments.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 00:05
    It therefore is still in use

    I don’t doubt that it’s still in use. I just doubt that it’s still the most used web browser on Linux.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 18:53
    Running Mozilla on a P120 with 48MB is… suicidal.

    Not really. I’m using Galeon on a Pentium-MMX 166 w/ 32 Mb of RAM.

    Netscape is a highly unstable browser, and it’s not free.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 14:36
    Web sites designed for a specific version or for
    a specific browser are evil. websites should be
    usable in ALL browsers.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 16:28
    All browsers that support the standards, that is (Which Netscape 4 doesnt).
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 16:58
    By the same standard, links, lynx, and w3m don’t support standards. Bottom line is that more than half of these sites that require a specific browser do it not to support a specific standard, but because they wish to use a proprietary extension to the standard.

    Should we trash all of the console web browsers because they don’t show the pretty pictures, or just the ones that don’t render tables/frames as desired? Neither is an approriate solution. These programs are still in use by many people.

    Most of the web sites out there display just fine with Netscape 3.x because most sites don’t use anything more advanced than HTML 3.2. If www.hotshotwebguru.org uses CSS (as an example), then the webmaster should provide for those browsers that don’t support the newer feature with something better than a “upgrade your browser” page. Progress is good, but not at the expense of the users.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/17 – 00:13
    CSS is designed such that web sites that don’t understand it still work. It is, after all, only a styling language, not a content language (it can geenrate content, but that should only be stylistic content, e.g. ()s around menu options and such).

    The problem isn’t that NS4 doesn’t do CSS – it’s that it does it poorly. CSS can crash it. An analogy would be if someone made an OS that implemented about half of ELF, and made the other, equally critical half, have absolutely absurd functionality.

    So it’s not a lack of support, as it is with Lynx, w3m, etc. Those browsers are still usable, because they ignore the standard. Netscape 4 just sucks.

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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/01/19 – 14:10
    Spot on.
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    Subject: Re: Netscape package orphaned?
    Author: DonDiego
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/16 – 14:51
    Of course they are. I have written several letters to webmasters on this topic while involved in the Mozilla project. But that is a another story that should not be discussed here.
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