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    When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Submitted by Anonymous on Monday, July 01, 2002 – 15:41
    DebianThere should be a debian-non-crazy section in the style of debian-non-US which can hold all good software like lame, which is blocked by some big companies in some countries. Also this cold hold all the cryptographic stuff which also cannot distributed in fr. (non-FR, non-US, …)
    Category: Opinion

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    Subject: There is a need for debian-outlawed-xx
    Author: meldroc
    Date: Saturday, 2002/07/06 – 18:52
    This would be useful for those of us who think some of the laws of our particular countries are unconstitutional, unjust or just plain wrong. We would have debian-outlawed-us for things like mame, MP3 encoders, a version of konqueror that has mp3 encoding support included, DVD CCS descramblers, etc. that are banned in the US, but should still be available if only to piss the government off. Similarly, have debian-outlawed-fr for things that are illegal in France (such as encryption programs), debian-outlawed-zh for things illegal in China (such as encryption programs, programs designed to help people circumvent the Great Firewall of China so they can surf to CNN’s web site, stuff that says “FREE TIBET!!!”)

    Of course, the servers keeping debian-outlawed-xx should be located in a place outside the legal reach of country xx, in the interests of self-preservation. Measures should also be taken to circumvent said country’s attempts to block or censor connections to said servers – make their censors play Whack-A-Mole.

    Oh, and this should be strictly unofficial, and not endorsed by the Debian Project (openly.) We don’t want the Debian crew getting busted for something done on the other side of the planet.

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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: Thing
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/07/03 – 00:57
    I’ve always thought that non-US was the wrong way round, and that instead the canonical Debian main should include all the packages that are legal anywhere, and that mirrors should then filter according to local laws.

    Of course that would be a royal pain to administer, especially if it turned out that there was no single location in which all packages could reside legally, or that the only place was somewhere with poor and/or expensive connectivity.

    That being the case, I don’t mind if we have things like non-US, as long as the official Debian main distribution is considered to logically include all the main fragments from things like non-US.

    That’s the thinking behind ensuring that the default version of the official CDs is actually the one including non-US, and then we strip the non-US packages out for people that are upset by breaking stupid laws.

    I don’t see why things are being excluded on the basis of US patents at present, and find it rather irritating. It seems to be the result of people falling back into the mindset that sees non-US as an addition, rather than a fragment of the complete Debian OS.

    Whenever I think about this, I end up wanting a distributed server, implemented as a layer above a group of real physical servers (like what RAID is to Hard Disks) residing in several different countries, on which the One True Debian could reside, without it actually existing at any of the physical servers. I don’t suppose anyone knows where I can get such a thing? 😉

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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: cef
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/07/03 – 02:30
    I think part of the problem with this is that since a single master mirror sits in a specific geographical location, that main mirror must also abide by the laws of that region. The problem with including all the “quasi-legal” software and having the mirrors filter it out is that the master mirror could be liable. Even if the master mirror only allows other mirrors to collect off it, what happens if a second level mirror accidently imports “quasi-legal” packages that should not be shipped in that area? There is lots of room for holes (and driving huge buses full of lawyers through them).
    Of course, when you get lots of mirrors in each country, keeping them in sync becomes a major and non-trivial thing to do. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: hal9k
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 20:12
    I believe Canada does not recognize software patents. As for breaking stuff up into non-??, I think that would take entirely too much time/effort. Having one single section containing all packages that are legally questionable, would seem to make sense, no?
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: gork
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 19:17
    I do pretty well with the debian.jones.dk and marillat.free.fr repositories.
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: xophos
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 09:35
    I would like to see libdcss and libdvdcss in non-crazy as soon as it is created. Because it is perfectly legal to use in most of Europe until now.
    I hate to add an inoffichial source for each of about 10 packages, that are not in main and not in non-us.
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: cef
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 08:56
    You could always just break up the existing system to do this sort of thing. And by adding a few small things to the deb package format, we should be able to easily handle this in scripts.
    First, Don’t use …/debian/non-US, use …/debian/restricted/{country code}. Everything in these directories should be symlinks (aka the current way the distribution does it with the ‘ports’ dir and symlinks).
    All you need then is a way for package maintainers (and really, it is a package maintainers job to keep this up to date) to define what countries do/do not allow these programs.
    EG:
    Deny ALL except US (Self Explanatory)
    Allow ALL except FR/US (Not for France and USA)

    With this, you could easily allow multiple countries to have their own ‘restricted’ files, without issues, and not much difference in the space requirements.

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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: marvelous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 09:38
    I think it’s not the package maintainer’s job to look where a package is releasable. Of course, it should be marked in the package. But developpers who are familiar with legal issues in their countries should tell maintainers that their package can’t be released there.
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: cef
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/07/03 – 02:20
    This is what I was basically implying. It should basically go through the bug reporting system (file a bug about release for a particular geographical/legal area), which is then updated by the package maintainer. What I am saying though, is that it is the maintainers job to maintain the list, not to go out and find out (though it would be nice to make some sort of effort, at least initally).
    If such a system gets implmented, people who know that a package should not be shipped to the area should file a bug report to identify the package as such. If there is no timely release, then someone can do an NMU. If a dedicated team sits around checking the status of the packages, submitting bug reports, and doing NMU’s in the case of maintainers being too busy, so be it.
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: marvelous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 08:55
    If you make a non-crazy, you’ll maybe have to put whole main in it, to fit every country. Why not put everything in main and create country dependent releases (just packages lists would be localised, like for the cds)?
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: Debiandoesdallas
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 07:06
    Just have one version and name it after an enlightened country. Everyone will use that one. If we are gonna operate on pretense lets do it right!
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: lordsutch
    Date: Monday, 2002/07/01 – 16:06
    Well, you can always add dr.jones.dk to your list, which includes lame and pine binaries, among others:

    • deb http://debian.jones.dk/ unstable misc
    • deb http://debian.jones.dk/ testing misc

    For safety’s sake, I strongly recommend adding this to /etc/apt/preferences:
    Package: *
    Pin: release o=Jones
    Pin-Priority: 99

    Not that I don’t trust Jonas… but I don’t trust Jonas 🙂

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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: guineapig
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/07/02 – 04:45
    Or you could always add Christian Marillat’s mplayer archives which has lame, gogo, mplayer and some other interesting stuff. (sources.list info at http://mplayer.nmeos.net/
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: Sunnanvind
    Date: Monday, 2002/07/01 – 16:03
    We discussed it on debian-devel at http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg00109.html
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: VlijmenFileer
    Date: Monday, 2002/07/01 – 16:21
    I would say that the name “non-us” in wrong to start with. It talks about a country instead of about limitations put on software, and the implications that has.
    Functional names as suggested in the debian-devel mailing list are important to make clear what types of software /we/ discern and to make it easy for package maintainers to know where to place their packages. It will then be easier to know in which countries to serve which software.
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    Subject: Re: When will there be a debian-non-crazy
    Author: Sunnanvind
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/07/03 – 12:59
    Wasn’t that exactly what I said? I suggested the names “crypto” and “patents”.
    [ Please login, or register ]

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