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    XFree86 4.2.0
    Submitted by d8A90n on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 – 20:48
    I’d like to know from people inside Debian if XFree86 4.2.0 is being packaged at the moment, or sometime soon.
    Joy: XSF has been updated. ๐Ÿ˜‰

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 12:32
    Branden has updated the X Strike Force as only he can – blunt, to the point, slightly abusive, and full of colourful language.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 20:10
    Branden is a fucking loser.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 23:49
    Blunt, to the point, slightly abusive, and full of colourful language.

    I’d correct my earlier comment to remove the “as only Branden could” qualifier, but I can’t.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: CraHan
    Date: Saturday, 2002/01/26 – 14:04
    Well, being the not so proud owner of a Trident CyberbladeXP, I was forced to revert to the framebuffer driver in xfree 4.1. I followed the changelog for 4.2 from day to day, seeing that the trident driver got some major updating so I was glad when it was finally released. Now, I really couldn’t wait another month or so to finally use the new support for it so I decided to take a chance and install the binaries from the xfree86 ftp. Well whaddaya know ๐Ÿ™‚ Worked like a charm, I now have awesome graphics (in comparison to my framebuffer period) and I can finally start using the laptop for more graphical stuff. So if you are so impatient for the deb files, take a chance and install the binaries yourself.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: tplayford
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/30 – 13:29
    I’ve got 4.2 installed and my cyberbladeXP is still not accelerated (trident refusing to give programming infomation). I find that the vesa driver is much better than the trident one, it seems partially accelerated!. Give it a go.
    There was some talk of Trident allowing binary drivers, any news an this?
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Monday, 2002/01/28 – 14:35
    I suppose your running debian on a Toshiba SatPro 4600… In 4.1.0 trident driver was performing not too bad with “ShadowBuffer” enabled, that is very similar to using fb device… Anyway, did you ever get the tv/out working on linux ??
    Tnx.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 15:28
    Haha look at the posts to this thread. That pretty much removes any wonder why senior admins call linux a toy for open source kiddies. Do you think some guy in his 40s whith 20 years of experience is gonna put up with any of that nonesense, no. I hope no one is wondering why debian never gets passed “i run it on my mom’s dell and it’s nifty” or “my 486 makes a great mp3 server when i put debian on it”. One time i heard a programmer in a linux shop even say it was embarrasing to admit they where using linux, i always thought gee why would anyone be embarrased of using linux? Mystery solved.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 00:42
    I got a little impatient waiting for X 4.0 to enter unstable becuase of course that was a massive improvement over 3.3.6, a really major improvement…

    But 4.2.0 really doesn’t strike me as all that amazing…what’s the big rush…

    Unless you have one of the obsolete/obscure cards that just got support added i don’t see what the big hurry is anyways…

    Althoug it is nice to see the updates to the nv driver so now the free software fundamentalists can stop declareing a jihad on anyone who bought a geforce…heh…

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: d8A90n
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 03:14
    The new Radeons 7000, 7200, 7500 and 8500 aren’t readily supported in 4.1.0. I just bought a 7500 (my first 3D videocard… I got pretty excited) just to find that there wasn’t any support for it. Thanks to QT I have a decent workaround for it, otherwise I would probably have put my old 2D-only card in until 4.2.0 got packaged; hence my question on the timeline.

    I was hoping to enjoy good 3D gaming with my new card in linux but Loki is closed now :o( Sad day. Sad me. Don’t want to use windows for games. And I’d like to play something else than kjezzball

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: d8A90n
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 14:16
    I would just like to point out a friendly fact:

    Two (2) people (only) actually replied to my post in a useful way:
    -1. One guy pointed out that the package won’t come out for at least a month or two; which is fine by me. I wasn’t push going going to get angry. I know almost all Debian developpers do packaging in their spare time and it’s fine by me.
    -2. Another person mentionned a MUCH better workaround than using the vesa driver.

    I’m now running XFree86 with the radeon driver (using the chipId workaround) and it’s making me happier than a fish in water. I have accelerated X (better than my old Rage Pro card) and I don’t have to switch back to my old card.

    I only asked about #1 but #2 came in really handy . Thanks a lot to whoever helped (anonymous posts :o! )

    -d8A90n

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 14:52
    Didn’t you read the part of the GPL that says you are free to use the software however you like as long as you kiss everyone’s ass and put the developers up on a pedastal and worship them like gods?
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 16:13
    Yeah, hi, that was me. I posted that (and also this) as anonymous because I do not get access to my DP account (nick ‘QT’) anymore. Lost the password and somehow don’t get along with the confirmation codes I get emailed (on request) from DP.

    To your problem: I also bought a Radeon 7500 back in October last year and was fighting with the same problem. Then I found that ChipId option and thought I could try to declare my 7500 Radeon as a regular Radeon VE. And oooops it was working immeditaetely ๐Ÿ™‚

    Nevertheless I hope that 4.2.0 gives it another boost i.e. for 3D. Currently glxinfo seems to only have AGP 1x although the BIOS is set to 4x. Thus glxgears (and so on) is doing quite bad on my machine at the moment.

    I also have a friend who packaged CVS XFree 4.1.99 for Unstable, but I did not want to test that. Rather sticking to 4.1.0.1 (using ChipId option) and waiting for the official release.

    I am happy to read that this option also helped you now…

    Have fun! :^)

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 19:59
    Doesn’t option “AGPMode” “4” under the video card section work? (Or you could read the README.dri for more info).
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: QT
    Date: Saturday, 2002/01/26 – 18:26
    Thanks again for this information. After setting this option everything improved.

    XFree86 log:

    (**) RADEON(0): Chipset: “ATI Radeon VE (AGP)” (ChipID = 0x5159)
    (**) RADEON(0): Using AGP 4x mode

    $ glxinfo
    […]
    OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Radeon 20010402 AGP 4x x86/MMX/3DNow!

    Now wondering why only 8MB aperture size is used although it is set to 128MB in the BIOS. Is there another option available to set this?

    bye
    QT

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: QT
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 08:52
    Ok, thanks for the info. Did not know that this option is available for all drivers. Will try it when I am back home this weekend and let you know if it improves the situation.

    Btw, can’t find README.dri on my system here. At least ‘locate’ doesn’t find it at all. Where is this README located? I’ve also looked into XF86Config-4(5) and the option wasn’t mentioned there either.

    Finally I found this article which confirms that this option is available for the radeon driver.

    I also saw in some usenet posts, that some people get an appropriate AGP mode kernel message when loading agpgart and the drm module, but that is not shown on my system (VIA KT266A, Radeon 7500). Anyway I will try tomorrow…

    bye & thanks again.

    :wq

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: QT
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 16:37
    finally managed to reset my password ๐Ÿ™‚
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: d8A90n
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 19:55
    Cool for your password :o)

    Thank you very much for the ChipId trick. I’ve search on google and google groups about it and didn’t find a single bit of information. I haven’t tried looking at the xf86 mailing list archive though. I guess this would probably be in there.

    Enjoy your new (old) DP membership!

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: d8A90n
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 14:38
    > I wasn’t push going going to get angry

    that should be “I wasn’t pushing nor was going to get angy”… or something like that.

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    Subject: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 11:00
    Hi,

    I do not contribute to Linux, I do not contribute to Debian. Frankly I don’t have time. I do however advocate Linux at work and everywhere I go. I am already responsible for 100s of people switching over to Linux.

    The main selling points are stability and (more importantly) user support.

    I endlessly brag about the quick feedback from the developers, the personal one to one you get through ICQ etc.

    I remember once when people who distributed Linux actually enjoyed interaction with the users. Unforunately it now seems that there are certain criteria placed upon people before they can ask.

    Why is it that I read more and more about developers getting arsy with their customers?

    All you are doing is shooting yourself in the foot and loosing not only newbies, but oldies as well.

    I understand that it is purely a volunteer effort, but if you genuinely want Linux to succeed you have to embrace the users, not alienate them.

    How am I supposed to recommend to an MD of a 1100 strong company that they can take on Linux because the support network is much stronger then commmercial offerings if the first time they post an article they get flamed?

    Think about it. You can either go into your little clique and moan about how nobody appreciates all the hard work and in a few years dissapear back into the realm of techies or you can continue making progress into the commercial world by treating people as people and not people who are invading your time, even though they are ๐Ÿ™‚

    I think it is time that people wake up and realise what they have to do in order to cut it in the real commercial world.

    BTW I love Debian, and have never recommended anything else but you guys are working against me getting it adopted in the real commercial world.

    Please don’t respond in flame. I am not having a go at anyone, I am just telling you how it comes across to outsiders.

    Cheers

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/04/24 – 03:49
    Back in the days of dos and wordperfect I used to help people out setting up their machines, sorting problems out etc. Then I started getting asked to set up computer accounting systems, fix hardware problems, walk people through installations, etc. Now I don’t know anything about computers. I don’t care what people do with them. I don’t help anybody. Why? because I was a free consultant. I have no interest in doing that. I program what I want. If somebody can use it, fine. If somebody wants to help me finish it, fine. If they can’t read the source code to figure it out, I don’t care.

    Derek

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: cyates
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 10:18
    People have mentioned that I comparing Debian support to commercial support.

    I am not, I am saying that for any open source software to survive it has to compete with commercial tools.

    In this case, obviously support is a big thing for the commercial and non-commercial environment.

    Instead of blaming all the users for not reading the right papers in obscure places why don’t you put up a couple of sites that act as a gateway for users.

    Oh wait, isn’t that what DebianPlanet and debianhelp are for ๐Ÿ™‚

    Why don’t you set up a system where people can email in questions and they are randomly assigned to an individual in a pool of techies, not necessarily developers, just people who can answer the emails.

    You could even make it public so people post up a question then other people can answer.
    Hang on, isn’t that again, the point of debianplanet ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Seriously, Mandrake has excellent technical support and online queries.

    Look at mandrakeuser, mandrakeexpert, mandrakecampus etc. etc.

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    Subject: This has been most enlightening
    Author: cyates
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 19:38
    I have to say thankyou for every body’s feedback about the mission of Debian.

    I have become guilty (as some people mentioned) of expecting Debian to be *commercialised*.
    I think the *distribution* is, but the developers aren’t, and as such I accept your points.

    Unfortunately I am not going to invest any more time playing with a distribution developed by school kids who are offensive and clearly have no clue as to how the real world works.

    As such I have now looked around and realised that (similiar to the Microsoft philosophy) I had become very single minded about Debian.
    While looking around at other distributions it has become clear that the main selling points of Debian (package management, stability) are now loosing their importance, particularly when combined with the respect (or lack) of the developers.

    So thanks very much Debian, you have helped me improve the quality of my computing by looking elsewhere.

    Choice can only ever be a “good thing”.

    No, I don’t expect anybody to cry over loosing me, but how many more people will go???

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: node
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/31 – 18:06
    > Unfortunately I am not going to invest any more
    > time playing with a distribution developed by
    > school kids who are offensive and clearly have
    > no clue as to how the real world works.

    Woohoo!! One less clueless newbie to worry about. And school kids? I thought I was a university student. And I have a crystal clear idea of how the real world works. This is *why* I work on debian. If you can’t even understand that, then you really should stfu.

    > No, I don’t expect anybody to cry over loosing
    > me, but how many more people will go???

    Not enough.

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: cyates
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/31 – 20:15
    I’d like to hear your definition of newbie. Having 9 years experience as a software engineer, and almost 6 years experience of using Linux, including a year being sys admin for a 95% Linux network I don’t class myself as a newbie.

    I do however class myself as someone who works in the real world and has relevant opinions on how Debian can be adopted in the real world.

    As for being a Uni student and having a crystal clear idea of how the real world lives, you are one up on me, and all the students I know. None of us had any idea about the real world when we are at Uni.

    As to not enough people leaving, I really don’t know where to start.

    The psychology of a developer who develops for other people, but doesn’t want those other people to use their software is really very weird.

    Good luck to you, and I hope you never do discover what the *real* world is like ๐Ÿ™‚

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: node
    Date: Saturday, 2002/02/02 – 12:08
    > I’d like to hear your definition of newbie.

    Someone who has 9 years experience as a software developer, 6 years experience of using linux, including being a sysadmin for a 95% linux network and yet goes around saying (and note that I do not believe you have actually said this, this is not a quote, but some text enclosed in quote marks that may be the kind of thing that you would say) “Hey, guys who actually do stuff to help debian when I don’t, I’ve got this really great idea of how you can make debian really great for managers and businesses and stuff and I think I’ll tell you about it.” And also someone who can’t use “>” to quote in message replies.

    > As for being a Uni student and having a crystal
    > clear idea of how the real world lives, you are
    > one up on me

    OK, let’s assume that I do not know anything about how the “real world lives”; that I am a naive student who *thinks* he knows. Enlighten me.

    > The psychology of a developer who develops for
    > other people …

    You obviously missed my other post – I don’t develop for other people, I develop for myself as, I expect, do a large number of debian developers. And if it’s not for myself it’ll be for another hacker, not some manager in a business who doesn’t know his ass from his elbow when it comes to pointers. This is probably where your confusion comes in. You’re so used to programming for some PHB in order to put bread on the table that you assume that’s why everybody does it.

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/02/06 – 14:49
    >Someone who has 9 years experience as a software >developer, 6 years experience of using linux, >including being a sysadmin for a 95% linux network >and yet goes around saying (and note that I do not >believe you have actually said this, this is not a >quote, but some text enclosed in quote marks that >may be the kind of thing that you would say) “Hey, >guys who actually do stuff to help debian when I >don’t, I’ve got this really great idea of how you >can make debian really great for managers and >businesses and stuff and I think I’ll tell you >about it.” And also someone who can’t use “>” to >quote in message replies.

    I have absolutely no idea what point you are making ๐Ÿ™‚

    >OK, let’s assume that I do not know anything about >how the “real world lives”; that I am a naive >student who *thinks* he knows. Enlighten me.
    people need to eat. To eat people need to buy food. To buy food people need money. To get money people need to work.

    Good ideas mean jack. Open source without business is what?

    >You obviously missed my other post – I don’t >develop for other people, I develop for myself as, >I expect, do a large number of debian developers. >And if it’s not for myself it’ll be for another >hacker, not some manager in a business who doesn’t >know his ass from his elbow when it comes to >pointers. This is probably where your confusion >comes in. You’re so used to programming for some >PHB in order to put bread on the table that you >assume that’s why everybody does it.
    What does PHB mean?
    My original point is that Debian being adopted by business can only be a good thing. Current attitude of developer’s is preventing that.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    I am actually getting quite bored of continuing this thread, if you *really* want to carry on please email me privately.

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening + idea
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/26 – 03:21
    If you’re getting “quite bored” of this thread, I wonder how you can be surprised that not all developers enjoy giving free support.

    An idea for developers to be friendly and yet not waste too much time:
    Use a canned reply ala:

    Hi!
    Unfortunately for you, I don’t offer free support. You might want to ask on a debian-user mailing list http://debian.org/mailinglists but please read the docs first. If you’re looking for professional support (i.e. you don’t want to read the docs) give http://www.debian.org/consultants/ a try.

    Please don’t write me again for support. I am happy to receive new bug reports and the like, but if you write to me again for support, I probably wont reply, but I might block your email.

    Regards,
    – Developer
    PS: I don’t try to be rude, but I want to spend my time making Debian GNU/Linux better, rather than answering questions all the time. Have a nice day.

    (Just in case someone didn’t think of it).
    I don’t think a developer should give free support, unless she or he really have the time for it. She or he might end up getting tired of the emails, and stop developing.

    Cheers for Debian GNU/Linux.

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:09
    Out of sheer curiosity, what’s wrong with “school kids” in Debian?

    I, for one, am one. Occasionally it shows, but that’s life. There are quite a few “school kids” in Debian (none of whom I’ll name execpt myself, since they can declare their hand if they want; I’m not going to do it for them). As with non-schoolkids, some are excellent, some simply suck.

    But have a look at some of the major packages. Some are maintained by schoolkids, and are done damn well.

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:36
    There’s nothing wrong with school kids getting together with their buddies and making a linux distro. Just the maturity level and lack of “real world” understanding shows…
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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 01:52
    I find that interesting. Age != experience.

    I’ve had more real-world experience in packaging than most here, yet I’m still a schoolkid. So have numerous other young maintainers.

    I think the measure you’re looking for is “experience”, because I think you’ll find that most teenage Debian developers have had more “real world” IT experience than, say, your average 40-year old sandwich hand.

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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 21:39
    In the real world you can’t take 3 years to release a new version of something ok kiddo.
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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 23:48
    I never stood up for and defended the release process.
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    Subject: Re: This has been most enlightening
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 20:07
    I didn’t say anything about experience making free packages for unix clones in your spare time…i was talking about no clue how the real world works…
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 14:55
    Well the motivation behind mandrake is to make money.

    The motivation behind debian is to get your ego stroked and feel important.

    If user got all the answers they needed and got the packages they expected prepared promptly no one would get to feel important and flame people and act like a mighty god.

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    Subject: Debian users are not customers
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 07:48
    Sure, it’s nice if people are polite and it’s
    too bad that certain Debian developers are not.

    But Debian users are not customers of Debian
    developers. Customers pay money, and as a
    result have earned a right to expect something.
    Claiming to be a “customer” is just going to
    piss people off.

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    Subject: Re: Debian users are not customers
    Author: cyates
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 10:11
    OK, sorry users. Whats the difference between a customer and a user?

    Semantically we all purchase opensource software for 0.

    Thats what I think anyway. ๐Ÿ™‚

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    Subject: Re: Debian users are not customers
    Author: jlm
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 14:44
    No, I don’t think we do.

    Free software is not, in fact, free as in costless, or free in the sense that it imposes no obligation on its users. When you use Free software, you enter into a social contract with the rest of the user community (including the maintainer(s), Debian developers, and so on). Part of this contract is that you do not selfishly overconsume scarce community resources (like the DD’s time). You take on part (a relatively small part, but some) of the burden of keeping that software useable and improving it for everybody. This might just be reporting bugs, or it might just be educating yourself to the extent that you are part of the collective knowledgebase instead of a drain on it.

    This isn’t to say that the inexperienced shouldn’t get support, but it does mean that a user of Free Software has to grow beyond the perpetual infancy in which ‘customers’ of corporations are held. If you absoultely must have the latest X right now, the adult response is to FTP it and figure out how to build it, not to run to daddy on the mailing list and ask him to do it for you.

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    Subject: Re: Debian users are not customers
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 15:10
    I don’t see anywhere in the GPL it saying i have to kiss some immature geeks ass just cuase he patched two lines of bitchx or something.

    The GPL was supposed to be about empowering users not belittling them.

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    Subject: Re: Debian users are not customers
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:05
    So this immature geek instead has to kiss your arse just because he patched two lines of BitchX?
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    Subject: Re: Debian users are not customers
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 13:59
    Customers PAY for the service (notice, I have not said “software”). That allows the developers/support people to dedicate as much time as necessary to solve the problems you might have, as there is no need of having to use your spare time for this. Most people (I would say all of them but I’m sure someone would make me wrong) have to work for a living, so they haven’t got all day to sort out your complains/doubts. If they did, I bet they’d be much friendlier and dedicated.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: node
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 06:06
    > I am just telling you how it comes across to
    > outsiders.

    What makes you think we care? Remember that that is what you are: an outsider. Why on earth is everybody so godammned concerned about the commercial success of GNU/Linux? Who the fuck wants “success in the commercial world” when all it means is extra lame-ass comments like this?

    “I’m not a techie, I don’t know anything about programming, I’m of absolutely no use to anybody in the community, I don’t understand the difference between free and open source software, but I have this comment about you and what you do which I hope you’ll listen to and follow: …” Keep your fucking comments to yourself. Either that, or use windows, like I give a fuck what fucking OS you use. If you’re too lazy to get off your ass and do anything to help, shut you trap. And you can tell the MD of the “1100 strong company” the same, like I’m supposed to bow down and suck his dick because he might.. use my software? What the fuck makes you think I want some idiot MD telling all his clueless imps to use GNU/Linux instead of windows? What would that mean? More fucking lameass shit from clueless newbies is what. Fuck ’em.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 22:56
    Next time ask your mom if she can give you a prozac to go with your ritalin and orange juice in the morning ok toughguy.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 15:52
    Exactly, debian is a hobbiests distro created by amateurs, some people just expect to much out of it.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 15:15
    If no one uses your software who will kiss your socially inept ass?

    I don’t recall Stallman ever saying users where required to contribute shit.

    Once you distribute it to somebody they have the right to do whatever they want. They are not required to kiss your ass, contribute code or do anything else.

    I’m supposed to bow down and suck your dick becuase you made some packages for a unix clone in your spare time? whoopy fricken doo dude, get a hold of yourself, in the big scheme of things you are not important, even if flaming the poor users makes you feel like you are.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: node
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/31 – 17:44
    > If no one uses your software who will kiss your
    > socially inept ass?

    Who cares? I don’t write software for the sake of ass kissing, social acceptance or anything else. I write it because there’s a need, usually mine, for it to be written. If other people want to use it that’s fine. If other people don’t want to use it that’s fine. If clueless newbies want to email me and ask me unbelievably dumb questions or give me stupid “advice”, that’s not fine.

    > I don’t recall Stallman ever saying users where
    > required to contribute shit.

    Who cares what Stallman said? The guy’s a loon. A loon with code-fu, but a loon none-the-less. And *I* never said users were required to contribute shit, so wtf are you talking about?

    > Once you distribute it to somebody they have the > right to do whatever they want. They are not
    > required to kiss your ass

    Who the fuck said they were? Why are so obsessed with ass kissing? What makes you think I want people to kiss my ass? If people kiss your ass it means they assume you are higher than them in some order, and the same assumption used in the context of debian or free software means fewer people will get down and do the work, leaving it to those who “know better”; you think I want this?

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 09:51
    My point ๐Ÿ™‚

    If you do not think you are damaging Linux *and* Debian and you don’t need the publicity and support of the commercial world then fine. I have nothing to say to you.

    I am not sure the bottom quote came from, I am actually a professional software engineer (with a bonafide software engineering degree :)) who has worked in this industry for 9 years, held the position of software engineer, team leader, IT manager (including support) and network admin.

    Most of the positive thoughts I have about Debian come from the very quick, respectful (obviously not your comments) and spot on responses I received when I asked a question.

    The comment I was making is that this seems to be no longer the case.

    Get your facts right before you go making up quotes, and read up on netiquette.

    BTW my email is colin.yates@ntlworld.com if you want to respond offline.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: node
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/31 – 17:58
    > I am not sure the bottom quote came from

    I made it up. I assumed that, as it was quite obvious that you didn’t say it, you would be able to understand that it was a made up quote. Forgive me.

    > I am actually a professional software engineer
    > (with a bonafide software engineering degree :))
    > who has worked in this industry for 9 years,
    > held the position of software engineer, team
    > leader, IT manager (including support) and
    > network admin.

    What do you want, a biscuit? I’ve been on courses with “professional software engineer”s who didn’t know the difference between memory and the hard disk. And you’re a manager.. and you wear this as a badge? *And* you’re still an outsider.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 08:49
    Chill.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 18:16
    >> I do not contribute to Linux, I do not contribute to Debian. Frankly I don’t have time. I do however advocate Linux at work and everywhere I go. I am already responsible for 100s of people switching over to Linux.

    Be careful about wearing that sort of thing as a badge of honor.

    >>The main selling points are stability and (more importantly) user support.

    No, the main selling point is *Freedom*, not stability and support. Stability and support are positive side effects.

    >>I endlessly brag about the quick feedback from the developers, the personal one to one you get through ICQ etc.

    I feel this is like bragging about the size of the fish you catch at a certain spot. That does not guarantee that others will have similiar luck. Especially with support being people driven, the interaction between two specific persons really determines the outcome. If you have a patient and considerate user seeking support, they will usually find patient and considerate responses.

    >>Why is it that I read more and more about developers getting arsy with their customers?

    Possibly because of the user boom. The ecosystem (if I may use that anology) is considerably tipping more and more towards the users outnumbering the developers. Users contribute greatly with bug reports and testing. But they have to remember that is their role in said ecosystem, not poaching and then demanding support.

    >>if you genuinely want Linux to succeed you have to embrace the users

    This could be a fair statement to a developer who cares passionately about their work. But the entry cost for Linux users is different than just plunking down money and expecting turnkey results ala a true commercial operation that is driven by the market and public perception of the product. There is no drive to shape the perception of GNU/Linux. The drive is to improve the quality which for the most part is always a behind the scenes effort.

    >>moan about how nobody appreciates all the hard work and in a few years dissapear back into the realm of techies or you can continue making progress into the commercial world

    Which world/realm in this statement is the horse, and which is the water? You cannot force your goals on someone volunteering unless you want to contribute as well (with either your time/skill, or money).

    The bottom line is every person is going to have a different set of expectations than his/her neighbor. Instead of focusing on the differences, lets try to bridge the divide in our differences and get work done. Instead of complaining, offer to help solve a problem in whatever way is within your capacity.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 15:46
    The problem here is that you’re comparing Debian support to commercial support. Debian support is staffed by volunteers, while commercial support gets paid. They get paid to know the answers and be nice about responding to the same question three thousand times. They get paid for being professional and timely and all that. Debian maintainers do this in their spare time, which I’m sure they think is precious enough already. You should be thanking them for all the stuff they already do because they want to, without them we wouldn’t have this great system. If you want commercial quality support, stop being a whiney freeloader and hire someone with the know-how to support you.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 15:07
    Without all the amazing hardworking saintly better than mother teresa debian volunteers, well, i’d just use redhat, heh. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    And if your spare time is so god damn precious don’t fucking voluteer to do shit it in your spare time then. No one’s forcing you to do this shit, as you say they are volunteers, so if you don’t enjoy it what the fuck are you volunteering for?

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/04/26 – 02:44
    You seem to confuse “supporter” with “developer”.
    (And no, I am on user side, only contributed with a single bug report so far, unfortunately – hope I wil find the time to do more some day).
    Cheers for Debian GNU/Linux.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 14:53

    I remember once when people who distributed Linux actually enjoyed interaction with the users.

    Most still do, with most users.

    Unforunately it now seems that there are certain criteria placed upon people before they can ask.

    RTFM has been a part of Un*x culture for a long time. No “now” about it.

    Why is it that I read more and more about developers getting arsy with their customers?

    Our what? If you want to be treated as a customer, pay me. If you don’t, you get the same treatment everyone else does. Which in my case happens to default to friendly, but tends to be less friendly if you are in the “do my homework for me now” class.

    How am I supposed to recommend to an MD of a 1100 strong company that they can take on Linux because the support network is much stronger then commmercial offerings if the first time they post an article they get flamed?

    If they aren’t prepared to be occasionally flamed, let them get a consultant who knows how Linux support works to handle support for them. TANSTAAFL.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Dwonis
    Date: Friday, 2002/02/01 – 01:29

    Sigh
    . By being an asshole, and defending the position that you are somehow justified in being an asshole, you make the rest of the community look bad. (By “you”, I mean anyone who is being an asshole and justifying it.)
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    Subject: Maintainers feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 14:45
    Please don’t respond in flame. I am not having a go at anyone, I am just telling you how it comes across to outsiders.
    Ok, this isn’t a flame. But I think you should spend a few weeks in tech support and see if you don’t get a little snippy.
    Consideration is a two-way street. If you want some, you need to give some.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 13:50
    Curiously, this was later posted as a (rejected) submission.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: cyates
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 13:54
    I know, I posted it.

    I am quite suprised to hear your responses of saying that you don’t care whether Linux is adopted commercially!

    Even if you aren’t actively encouraging the adoption of Linux in the commercial world you should still be sympathetic to it surely!

    The more and more I get into this the more I think that instead of Debian being a mature, commercial quality distribution it is a group of childish indivuals with a pretty closed mind.

    OK, that is definately flame worthy but you see my point.

    Linux cannot afford to live in the world of techies. If it isn’t adopted by main stream it will die within years.

    I don’t want to see that happen, and I wish that my favourite distribution didn’t

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 15:04
    I agree with this.

    I grow so weary of trying to put up with linux people. It’s just silly.

    Imagine if you called up Cisco support and they flamed you and told you to search google?

    I’m starting to think dealing with egomaniacs and flamers is more expensive than just paying a real company to provide solutions.

    And of course the debian developers don’t care, or so they say. So i better not see these rants about how all the companies pick redhat even though it “sucks”.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 03:10
    The difference being that you PAY Cisco.

    If you pay me, I’ll be nice to you and tolerant with you.

    No such thing as a free lunch, and DEMANDING a free lunch from people does nothing but piss them off, hence the abrupt reply you get.

    Even though RH is free, the people working are paid to be nice.

    Do you want to pay us?

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 20:05
    Do you want people to use debian?
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 23:46
    I still don’t care about that; I just want it to be the best. I don’t care if it has 90%, I don’t care if only 3 people use it. As long as it’s the best, I’m happy.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 23:59
    No, I honestly don’t care. Sure, it would be nice, but I honestly don’t care.

    You know what I care about? Debian being a mature, quality distribution. Scratch the commercial bit. Except when I’m paid to do so, I write stuff to be the best it can be, not the most company-friendly.

    Quality must trump commercialism. No ifs, no buts.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: cyates
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 09:57
    I absolutely agree. Commercial doesn’t equal quality. Look at Microsoft.

    I do not understand how Linux/Debian can suffer from having a presence in the commercial world.

    How many people outside of the commercial world actually use Debian, and for what?

    If it wasn’t for the commercial world then I do not think Linux would be as prominent as it is now. Look at RedHat. Commercial but crap quality, however it has generated funding from IBM, HP, Sun etc.

    I am not saying the purpose of Debian should be to get a commercial distribution, I am saying the adoption of Debian in the commercial world is not going to happen while the tech support is so hostile.

    I think it is interesting that my original post was rejected as an article ๐Ÿ™‚

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:02
    As for the article being rejected, there was no need for it. It was already posted as a comment.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:01
    I’m using Debian in a commercial grounding. If people want to use Debian in a commercial grounding, then why don’t they contract out support, or hire DDs/NMs?

    I’m sure Debian can’t suffer from a commercial presence, but I don’t care about the commercial presence, unless it’s within the context of my job that pays my bills.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 14:18
    Personally I’d rather want the developers to work on technical issues, than to be a free support line for companies.

    Companies are a commercial entity. They shouldn’t have trouble getting commercial support for Debian (or linux in general).

    If they don’t want to do that, (or can’t) they have the option of studying it on their own or posting to user oriented mailing lists. I know for instance a company that have an employee or two learning it thoroughly, and if anyone in the company has a question about Debian or Linux, they just direct their question to those employees.

    Look at it this way: the more developers have to spend time responding to emails from well-meaning users, the less time they can devote to actually _work_ on the damn thing.

    And i’m sure the devs respond/interact if you have valid concerns or wishlists. After all, that’s what the public bug tracking system is for.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 14:48
    Linux cannot afford to live in the world of techies. If it isn’t adopted by main stream it will die within years.
    Then it should be dead already. Tux is dead! Long live Tux!
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 13:01
    Just a little remind: Debian’s objective is not making Linux popular. Linux is just the kernel we’re using at this time. There are many free kernels Debian can use (5?). What we’re empowering is the Debian system, not its components.
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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 11:22
    > I remember once when people who distributed Linux actually enjoyed interaction with the users. Unforunately it now seems that there are certain criteria placed upon people before they can ask.

    I remember once when I enjoyed interaction with the users. At the time, I was maintaining a couple of tiny packages, which had a lot to do with it. By the time the feedback reaches a certain amount, it just starts to shit you. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy interaction, I’m all for it, but when it gets to the point where you start *skimming* through +inbox (which is minus all the mailing lists, spam, BTS mail, etc), then I think you need to reassess the level of interaction you participate in.

    > Think about it. You can either go into your little clique and moan about how nobody appreciates all the hard work and in a few years dissapear back into the realm of techies or you can continue making progress into the commercial world by treating people as people and not people who are invading your time, even though they are ๐Ÿ™‚
    >
    >
    > I think it is time that people wake up and realise what they have to do in order to cut it in the real commercial world.
    >
    >
    > BTW I love Debian, and have never recommended anything else but you guys are working against me getting it adopted in the real commercial world.

    OK, let me state my honest opinion: I don’t care. I want to see Debian as a better, stronger, distribution. I don’t care which CIO’s desktop it lands on, I don’t care if it’s featured on the front page of the New York Times or if the Wagga Wagga milkbar starts selling Tux plush dolls, I really don’t.

    Have a look at www.spi-inc.org and www.debian.org some day, and see how commercially-oriented it is. About as much as I am.

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    Subject: Re: New user feelings
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 14:49
    Sure everyone sings this line that they don’t care if linux gets anywhere…

    But then i hear endless whining about how companies always go for proprietary solutions and overlook linux and whatnot…

    People whine and complain oh boohoo all the big companies use redhat and totally overlook debian…

    Sure people say they don’t care when someone calls them out for something, but then they turn around and bitch that some other distro gets the spotlight and no companies are choosing it blah blah blah…

    I’m pretty much getting sick of the linux “community”. In the future I’ll probably just use Sun…I’m sick of spending so much time with an operating system that is some kind of political statement. Of course you don’t care, nor should you, i sure don’t.

    There are a lot of myths that work in linux favor that in reality don’t work as nice as it sounds in a magazine article, usenet rant or expo keynote.

    Of course the latest stability problems in 2.4 are a major factor of linux disillusionment…

    Basically it seems to me people hack open source just to get on a high horse and feel all important about themselves…

    I mean who wants to use an os where every person involved in the os is a primadonna…

    It’s getting silly the guy who packages tar or something feels everyone owes him something…if it’s to much for you quit…

    Naturally please do flame me, i’m just a silly user in the real world, you are the all mighty packager of pico, destroy me with your mighty self rightous flames…

    Oooh and guess what i use a proprietary backup solution! Bombs away! i am a heathen destroy me with your all important imminence…

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    Subject: Use ChipId rewrite (was Re: XFree86 4.2.0)
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 09:58
    You can get the RADEON 7500 card to work with XFree86 4.1.0 by using the ChipID rewriting option of XFree86. Just add the following to your device section:

    Option “ChipId 0x5159”

    and select the radeon driver.

    I am using my RADEON since end of November happily with this option. Ok, the real 7500 support in 4.2.0 might give you better performance i.e. for 3D but the ChipId rewrite provides already very good results. At least MUCH better results than the VESA or FB driver.

    And then I am sure that you can easily wait until 4.2.0 hits Debian Unstable…

    HTH!

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    Subject: Use ChipId rewrite (was Re: XFree86 4.2.0)
    Author: faceprint
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 19:29
    Any chance there’s a magic line to make 4.1 work on the Radeon Mobility M6 in my new laptop? That’s the real reason I’m looking forward to 4.2
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    Subject: Use ChipId rewrite (was Re: XFree86 4.2.0)
    Author: QT
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 09:04
    I am not sure as I never investigated this due to not having this card. But what about this google search result?

    :wq

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    Subject: I need it.
    Author: danne
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 06:55
    I and about 10 000 people whit old pentiums have waited for a release like this becouse of the old S3 driver. It is a very common card in old low-end systems.

    And old XF86_* servers beginning to be obsolete.

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    Subject: Re: I need it.
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 07:45
    XF4.2 has proper support for old S3’s?
    SWEET!
    -d, who has an S3 Video 3200 (slightly better than the alternative – Stealth64), and an i740, in his two dodgy machines at home, and still uses XF3.3.6 on the former.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: d8A90n
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 03:04
    I didn’t mean this post to generate so much flame. The reason why I posted this here instead of debian-devel is because I knew Branden would be too busy to reply and I’d get the usual “it’ll arrive when it’ll arrive.” type of answer.

    As for the reason behind wanting to know when it’ll be packaged, or if it is in progress, or any bit of information on the status of 4.2.0 is that, as you probably read in the post, I bought a Radeon 7500 and put it in my box. The vesa driver is simply put _painful_ and if I can know if it’ll take 2-3 weeks or more then I’ll go back to my ATI 3D Rage Pro 8MB which is actually faster in X because it is supported. If it’s going to come out next week then I’ll put up with the vesa drivers and wait for the release.

    I don’t intend to put any pressure whatsoever on Branden or anyone else responsible for packaging 4.2.0. I actually appreciate the X-Strike Force’s work a lot and respect them. I just wanted to know a very loose timeframe as to when it’ll be ready for sid.

    Cheer up, life IS beautiful. Especially if your running Debian :o)

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 – easy to build
    Author: gps
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/02/20 – 09:35
    so what you really need is just the XFree86 4.2.0 X -server- not the whole schbang.

    grab the sources. edit the xc/cf/site.def and xc/cf/xfree86.def files so that it installs under your own directory (i recommend /usr/X11R6-custom) and is setup to only build the X server.

    then its a “make world; make install” followed by editing /etc/X11/?dm/Xserver* files to start your server instead of /usr/X11R6/bin/X.

    okay, i made it sound simple. i’ve been building X11 servers for 7 years.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 22:11
    You might be able to use the 7500 with 4.1.0 by overriding the ChipID to that of a VE.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 18:12
    In the middle of the flames, you’ll find an answer on how you can build X w/o messing your configuration.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/23 – 23:19
    I’m beginning to find Debian packagers the most unfriendly and unhelpful people around.

    I appreciate the work they do. I appreciate the FAQs they get asked every 5 seconds.
    I don’t appreciate their smart arse comments and jibes at all.

    They have chosen to be package maintainers.

    They can also choose not to respond to emails which they think are frivolous and answered in the FAQ/email archive.

    IMHO, if they are sick of answering a question, then don’t reply. People will find out for themselves if no replies are forthcoming, or other people on the list will reply.

    If maintainers do reply, it would be nice if they indicated where the ‘newbie’ could find further references to the subject, and not be an absolute bastard about the whole thing.

    Maintainers, if you feel like flaming, don’t reply. The clueless user will find a way to get the answer without your totally useless and aggravating reply. All you are doing by replying in the manner that I have witnessed so often recently is to piss off new users who may have actually started using debian, who now feel that the whole thing is way too ‘out of their league’ to be bothered with.

    I believe the whole point of Debian is to make a usable system for non-technical people. Let’s either encourage newbies, direct them to the appropriate place, or refrain from flaming them. Surely, you package maintainers are so busy maintaining packages that you don’t have time to reply to emails with flames? Just let them go, they’ll be sorted out by other active participants on the list.

    Sean.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: node
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 05:44
    > I believe the whole point of Debian is to make a
    > usable system for non-technical people.

    Where on earth did you get that idea?

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 14:51
    The point of debian is a chance for some geeks to feel all important about themselves and pat each other on the back and flame people who ask questions.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:01
    And the point of anonymous posting is so that you can sit around with your loser friends and brag about how you “really showed those geeks” and how they wouldn’t dare mess with you, but fail to mention that you didn’t have the guts to put your name on the message…

    (posted anonymously to prove a point)

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:39
    No the point of posting anonymously is so that i don’t have to make an account on some website just so a debian kiddie…er “developer” can get his rocks off for the day by flaming me to death.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: StevenK
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 02:22
    Ohhh, I see. By being a Debian developer, I’m automatically a flaming kiddie that eats newbies for breakfast. I hate to burst your bubble, but plenty of the people I’ve met within Debian are very nice people who also know their stuff.

    And when, and how I get my rocks off is none of your damn business, but it definitely isn’t from flaming newbies.

    And for the benefit of other posters, it’s Branden. *B* *R* *A* *N* *D* *E* *N*.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 03:30
    aw, who are *you* trying to fool?

    http://lists.slug.org.au/search?query=steven+kowalik&submit=Search%21&subquery=&result=normal&max=100&sort=score

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: StevenK
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 03:38
    Uh? What kind of ad hominen attack is this?
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 12:33
    Children, please.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 14:31
    They can also choose not to respond to emails which they think are frivolous and answered in the FAQ/email archive.
    And if they did that, someone, perhaps even you, would claim they’re unhelpful. It’s a no-win situtation.
    For the orignal questioner, the answer is thus:
    hold all the debian X-related packages, then download the 4.2 binary release. Make a copy of /usr/X11R6/ (just in case) and install 4.2 over it. When 4.2 comes into debian, then unhold those packages and upgrade. There are potential problems that may arise when you do the debian->XFree and XFree->debian switches, but that’s the price of living on the edge.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 03:14
    > I’m beginning to find Debian packagers the most unfriendly and unhelpful people around.

    You may well find that; that’s your perogative.

    > I appreciate the work they do. I appreciate the FAQs they get asked every 5 seconds.
    > I don’t appreciate their smart arse comments and jibes at all.

    After enough FAQ’s, you’ll start being a “smartarse” too.

    > They have chosen to be package maintainers.

    No, no, I think you mean, “They have *VOLUNTEERED* to be package maintainers.” ( They can also choose not to respond to emails which they think are frivolous and answered in the FAQ/email archive.

    We can also choose to do so, since it concerns our package. If the users want to know, they can ask in -user.

    When your VCR breaks, do you:
    * Call the service number and wait for it to be escalated (and the answer to come down, proxied through the ranks)
    or
    * Call the lead tech at home and ask when he’ll fix it.

    Obviously the answer is a). Now let’s draw a parallel with Debian.
    When you are hoping for new and completely non-essential packages (hint: severity wishlist), do you:
    * Ask on -user and wait for a developer to tell you what they heard on -devel/IRC/from the maintainer, or
    * Email -devel/the lead tech and ask when they’re coming.

    Obviously, if you picked B in either question, you can expect “smartarse” responses. So why don’t you ask on -user, and just wait for someone to give you the answer?

    And here’s another point: a broken VCR would be severity “grave”. Hoping for new X packages would be severity “wishlist”.

    > IMHO, if they are sick of answering a question, then don’t reply. People will find out for themselves if no replies are forthcoming, or other people on the list will reply.

    Yeah, this is great until people start flaming you for not answering mail, or filing grave-severity bugs in error, which you then have to close/downgrade, and then they figure you must be alive, so you get more mail …

    > If maintainers do reply, it would be nice if they indicated where the ‘newbie’ could find further references to the subject, and not be an absolute bastard about the whole thing.

    Branden isn’t typical of most maintainers; I do know that he has had run-ins with Jack Horwarth before, and doesn’t like him, sooo …

    > Maintainers, if you feel like flaming, don’t reply. The clueless user will find a way to get the answer without your totally useless and aggravating reply. All you are doing by replying in the manner that I have witnessed so often recently is to piss off new users who may have actually started using debian, who now feel that the whole thing is way too ‘out of their league’ to be bothered with.

    New users belong on -user, not on -devel. -devel is for developers, who have already obtained the mandatory asbestos suit.

    > I believe the whole point of Debian is to make a usable system for non-technical people. Let’s either encourage newbies, direct them to the appropriate place, or refrain from flaming them. Surely, you package maintainers are so busy maintaining packages that you don’t have time to reply to emails with flames? Just let them go, they’ll be sorted out by other active participants on the list.

    Part of the job of maintaining a package is answering all the mail that’s related to it; else you’re not properly doing your job. This formed by far the biggest part of maintaining KDE. Why don’t you try it one day and see how you fare, eh? Only about 40% of the KDE-related mails I got came through the BTS or lists; most were sent personally to me. It’s impossible to keep up after a while, which is most of the reason why I gave up. Easier said than done, come down off your pedestal etc.

    -d, coming in to bat for the maintainers.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 16:40
    > After enough FAQ’s, you’ll start being a “smartarse” too.

    No I won’t. It’s called “being a professional”. Those of us who work in software for a living know that the lead tech DOES get phone calls at home about certain things. Granted, it may not be from the end users, but I constantly get the same questions about my product repeated over and over again. And *every* *single* *time*, I politely and professionally answer their question if it’s short or point them to the right place to get the answer if it’s not.

    It’s not about touchy-feely-warm-fuzzies of being nice to people. Pissing people off will just make more work for yourself in the long run. Every single person whose question I answer with good information is someone else who will become a “guru” to the people around them. The more common the knowledge is, the less I get asked the question. And you know what? *IT WORKS*. Questions get asked a few times over a short period, and then finally enough people have seen the answer that I don’t get asked any more.

    Think this won’t work on the Internet? It works better. When I answer peoples’ questions on IRC, sometimes a _web page_ gets put up with the good information, and it becomes a little easier to find for the entire world.

    Just take a look at the way Branden has closed some of the bugs, and I think you’ll find that he’s not very professional.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 17:34
    Remember debian has nothing to do with professionalism. The maintainers are quick to remind everyone that they have no need to act professionally becuase after all they just do it for fun. If you are looking for a distro with professionalism consider a distro maintained by professionals not amateurs.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/01/26 – 00:45
    Acting like a professional is not the same thing as being a professional. Acting like a professional is a good thing, even if you happen to actually be a non-professional in your capacity as DD. People should strive to act like a professional. When they don’t, they will get called on it.

    Nobody will or can require that Brendan be a professional. But I can still complain about him not acting like one.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: chris
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 22:57
    Remember debian has nothing to do with professionalism.
    I’m notorious for being unprofessional at work, often on purpose. The reason? Simply put, I have yet to see a definitive manual on what constitutes professional behaviour. I’m not arguing semantics at all here, I’m postulating that the very definition of professionalism is highly subjective rather than something that one can measure another’s behaviour against.

    The maintainers are quick to remind everyone that they have no need to act professionally becuase after all they just do it for fun.
    Actually, we’re usually quick to point out that others shouldn’t expect 24×7 work from us on our packages because it’s a volunteer effort for us rather than a paying job. To somewhat respond to the “they just do it for fun” statement, I can say that, personally, I do it for fun AND out of necessity. I enjoy maintaining my packages, but I also NEED to use those same packages during the performance of my “day job” duties, so producing better packages benefits me on the career-front just as much as it does on the personal enjoyment side.
    If you are looking for a distro with professionalism consider a distro maintained by professionals not amateurs.
    I wonder what your definitions of “professionals” and “amateurs” are, since I fall into both categories simultaneously on the basis of your implication (if you mean that professionals get paid and amateurs don’t). The two terms are mutually exclusive and, therefore, my duality should be impossible. I’ve worked as a sysadmin and software engineer for over 10 years now and am currently employed in both capacities, which qualifies me as a “professional” by the above definition. On the Debian side, I don’t get paid and maintain my packages for a variety of reasons, which I suppose could qualify me as an “amateur” by the same definition set. Now, during the performance of my Debian duties, I wear both hats simultaneously rather than taking my “pro” hat off and putting on my “amateur” hat. So, I ask you, which do I qualify as?
    Also, the implication that simply because one person gets paid to do a job and another doesn’t get paid to perform the same job on the same technical level is hardly a valid reason for believing that the paid person won’t be a jerk while the unpaid person will be. I’ve met many, many, many so-called professionals in this field that are more abrassive than anyone that I’ve met since I’ve been a DD. Remember, technical expertise is what software developers are hired for, not their personalities and general friendliness (hence the frequent references to the difficulty of “herding cats” being akin to trying to direct a group of software developers). The one good thing that I can say about everyone that I’ve met that has solid technical skills is that they’re unique (not necessarily friendly, but unique, which is good IMO). I think that’s the best anyone can hope for when dealing with another human being, whether they get paid for what they do or not. If you doubt what I say, I urge you to try calling tech support of any major software company five or more times. I guarantee that you’ll encounter at least 2 of the 5 people that you deal with will be totally unfriendly and generally less than helpful. Yet, they’re professionals so, by your statement, what you would’ve experienced with those two jerks is also impossible and didn’t happen at all….

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:35
    So buy your logic if someone drives a taxicab during the day and races dirtbikes at night then they must be a dual professional taxicab driver/dirtbike racer?
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 02:14
    It all, of course, depends on whether they get paid to race dirtbikes.

    Before you say anything, Branden gets paid by Progeny to work on specific things, and I can tell you for a fact that X packaging is currently *not* one of those tasks.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 17:44
    Not only are they amateurs they are potty mouth amateurs.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 19:22
    If DDs do not want personal email regarding their packages, then I think they should not receive any–including bug fixes and other important updates.

    It is true that Branden has had a bit of a problem with at least one person (indeed, I recognized Branden’s public personality changed remarkably following one incident early in his maintainer career), but whenever someone takes on such an important position, they must accept the responsibilities that go along with it and I think most would not argue against the case that Branden is in a little deeper than he is ready for. Branden’s technical skills are not mitigating factors in this matter. I do understand that the volume of mail may be overwhelming with such an important and large set of packages, however this also does not justify Branden’s notoriously disparaging remarks. In all liklihood, Branden needs to reduce his responsibilities so that he can behave more responsibly. Although he has resisted on most occasions, he has called for help at other times, albeit with stiff qualifications. It would probably do everyone a world of good if this were to occur. Previously, I got the impression Branden felt threatened about this, but I’ve not been following the matter because it gets boring after awhile.

    There are occasions where I have submitted bug fixes or questions to DD directly, including Branden (2 bug fixes and 2 questions, IIRC). Although the majority of questions are suited for -user, and a few for -devel, there are some questions that only the package maintainer can answer.

    Although one person implied X had a “frequent” release schedule, in my experience that is not generally the case, and when frequent releases do occur (two such releases occurred after I submitted bug fixes to Branden), they were minor. I can think of occasions when there were important “frequent” releases, but I wouldn’t say this is the rule. Branden does generally produces a fairly quality set of packages. It is admirable that he emphasizes organization and quality. Still, I would like to see better communication with upstream, especially with so many important bugs outstanding for so many months. As Branden would probably angrily imply, that’s his prerogative.

    Clearly, there is more than one angle to this issue, and broad generalizations do not necessarily apply to all users. I would definately like to at least see someone working in tandem with Branden to maintain X, though.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 00:05
    blabla i thought you’re all so busy
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 11:22
    I agree with all your arguments except one.

    > * Ask on -user and wait for a developer to tell
    > you what they heard on -devel/IRC/from the
    > maintainer, or
    > * Email -devel/the lead tech and ask when they’re
    > coming.

    > Obviously the answer is a).

    Wrong. The email changed all barriers.

    Second regarding the VCR problem, a) is initialy your only solution. Because the VCR company has a facade: their support. As soon as a customer in trouble gets the direct phone call for a technical person, you can be sure than next time he’s got a problem, there’s half a chance he’s going to try contacting the tech guy first, and avoid waiting in the support queue list. Whatever the problem is.

    Back to the maintainer problem.
    One solution could perhaps be to have a bunch of automated response for such emails, so that answering this automated response would take the same time as clicking on delete.
    E.g.:
    automated response one: “Questions regarding whishlist, package availibility … should be answered either in my web page (www….), either in the news. If you can’t find it, please address questions to the newsgroup news://…. I will be answered within x days”

    etc…

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: searcher
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 04:46
    When first reading the submitter’s comments, I was getting
    ready to reply along the same lines.

    I don’t think I could have broken it down better than this.
    Great reply.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: blueHal
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 06:35
    Hear, hear! cheers to DanielS. I do not envy those who maintain such visible packages with such frequent release schedules.

    -neil
    judging maintainers by the quality of the packages they keep since 1996.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: egyptian
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 07:02
    Perhaps some slack should be cut by *both* sides. Users can remember that being a maintainer is a volunteer position and relax the incessant demands for up-to-date information on bleeding edge packages. Maintainers can remember that users, especially new ones, sometimes don’t know the basics about where they should go for information. What they take for granted isn’t always ‘common knowledge’.

    We all want the same thing, after all, which is a better Debian.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 03:10
    Dude, only a small handful of Debian packagers (there are what, 800?) are jerks. Brandon appears to be a serious dick, but you have to hand it to him, on a technical level he knows his stuff.

    And I wouldn’t try to convince people that we must make Debian easy for newbies. Hell, I saw on a kernel project list one fellow who *wanted* Linux to be hard to use, “to keep the ****ing idiot count down,” and to keep the big corporations from tinkering with Linux (this list is/was hosted by Intel, for a kernel driver developed by Intel, of which this person was a big user of).

    Out of the ~6 billion people in this world, you just have to accept the fact that a good number of them are assholes.

    Sean 2. ๐Ÿ˜‰

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 06:26
    Consider for a moment that Branden was probably hit with at least a hundred (probably several hundred) messages asking when 4.2.0 would be available in .deb format within a couple days of the official release. It’s likely to be at least a month (probably two) before he releases even preliminary packages of XF86 4.2.0 for sid.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 23:34
    Of course it’s a pain in the ass to be asked the same question over and over. Considering the high volume of questions the release of XFree86 4.2.0 is likely to cause it probably wouldn’t have taken a lot for Brendan to add a little message to the News and Announcements page like this: "To all newbies: I know that XFree 4.2 is out. Please don’t bother me with questions about when it’s available. It’ll be available for Debian in due time". I am sure that this would have made a lot of people not ask the question.

    Personally, I am one of the people who have recently bought a 7500 based card _and_ are switching to Debian from RedHat because it’s more down to Earth. I was tempted to ask the same bad "when" question and must say that I am glad that I didn’t.

    To me, people like Brendan who choose to devote their spare time to improve free software should get all the praise and respect they deserve. I envy them for their spirit and I appreciate the things they do for a community. But once you choose to assume responsibility to provide a software package to a community, you have to react to events such as the release of a new .0 version. This absolutely does not mean that packages have to be made available instantly — but small note on the web site or a posting to debian-x would be in order, wouldn’t it?

    Just my EUR 0.02

    Alexander
    alexander@krumeich.de

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Saturday, 2002/01/26 – 01:41
    What would be nice is a website saying the status of new versions of major packages. Like Current, New Release Unpackaged, Being Packaged, Being Tested, etc. No need to post a specific date for anything. Just a place for people to go and see the status. Like ok they haven’t even gotten started yet, might be a while, or ok it’s being tested so it’s almost done, or something like that. I think people just want to know is somebody working on it right now? Is it in testing? I remember waiting for the release of some software everyday doing an update to see if it was ready and after like to weeks i asked someone on irc and they said the maintainer was busy with something else and didn’t even get started yet. That is fine, but it would have been better for me to know that it wasn’t just about to get packaged any second. On the other hand i think we have all done a upgrade of all the packages not expect a new release of some large package for a while and then 2 days later the new version is out. Why not just make a site for this kind of information. It wouldn’t take much time for the maintainers instead of answering so many emails. Then you don’t need to answer the same question till you blow up and roast some newbie, just point them all to the website. Plus eventually it would get around to the various irc channels and newsgroups that for the questions of when a new package hits sid to send the person to that site. I know in classic debian style you will say if you want it so much make it yourself and maybe the maintainers will use it. Ok if someone has the webspace i would help develop a simple system to make this easy to update. I’m not gonna spearhead the prject or something but if somebody wants to do it i could pitch in some perl and html skill to work it out. Thats something i would like to see. That’s my suggestion, not great but better than making everyone involved so angry.
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    Subject: Compiling yourself?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/23 – 23:10
    I posted something on slashdot about it being hard to compile and install X but several people said it was a simple “make world; make install” type thing.

    I don’t know that this is true but you could try it.

    I’m interested in how it works if you do.

    (btw the proper thing would be to create a .deb or something and install that instead of using the make install)

    -error27

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    Subject: Re: Compiling yourself?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 06:22
    Using make world to build/install XF86 on debian is fine as long as you only want/need plain XF86. Many of the additional features debian’s packaging adds to XF86 are lost when you do this, however, and it can be VERY difficult to start using official packages again once you’ve done this.
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    Subject: Re: Compiling yourself?
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 16:20
    It can be done with little effort to switch
    between a custom build and a debian package.

    #define ProjectRoot /usr/X11R6-4.2.0/

    add the above line to host.def along with other
    host specific changes, compile, install.

    build and load the kernel driver.

    copy the XF86Config-4 to XF86Config and change the
    module load path in the latter.

    Move the /usr/bin/X11/X symlink to your new X server.

    update your ld.so.conf and rerun ldconfig.

    update your path with the new xserver preceding
    the old.

    switching back is fairly painless. Unlike a
    overwrite of the debian packages which will
    cause problems that are extremely difficult to
    revert.

    I am running 4.2.0 and have noticed no significant
    performance increase. In fact it may have dropped
    ever so slightly from the debian 4.1.0 package.

    unless you have a pressing reason to update IMHO
    waiting for the package maintainer’s release is
    the best approach.

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    Subject: Re: Compiling yourself? (thank you)
    Author: krumeich
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 15:21
    Thanks for these short and precise instructions. I did it is as you described and have XFree86 4.2.0 running — without breaking Debian dependencies.

    Alexander

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    Subject: Re: Compiling yourself?
    Author: d8A90n
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 19:57
    Thank you. This is definetly very interesting information.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: evileyez
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/23 – 22:26
    The guy asked an honest question, evening saying he attempted to find the solution in the proper venues. Yes, X is a complicated package to work with and we all appreciate what Branden is able to accomplish, in any length of time. But I felt there was no reason for the comment by rob.

    Leave the poor guy alone rob, he is only asking a question he couldn’t find an answer to after looking first.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 (use the web folks!)
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 14:03
    It sometimes amazes me how bad people are at dealing with simple issues. Folks will want to know when the next 4.2 is released in deb the day after the release. This is a fact of human nature. So, you can
    1) ignore emails, get short tempered, have useless threads on debian.org and make no *one* happy — unless you like this sort of thing which I think some folks do.
    2) you can post a note on [1] stating, “I’m working on the 4.1 package in woody and it’ll be at least a few months before you see 4.2 in sid” then create a template and auto-reply to every bozo/newbie with that URI. Then they know where to look and need not bother you further.

    [1] http://people.debian.org/~branden/

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 (use the web folks!)
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 23:55
    Ah, so you’re volunteering to answer all of this email for Branden. How nice of you.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 (use the web folks!)
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Friday, 2002/01/25 – 15:00
    this is bull. i’m suggesting how people can use the tools they have (like the *web*) to simplify their lives.
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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 (use the web folks!)
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Sunday, 2002/01/27 – 01:48
    In that case, it’s his perogative to do whatever he wants with his email.

    It is, after all, addressed to him.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 (use the web folks!)
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Tuesday, 2002/02/05 – 13:02
    Say, are you a debian maintainer yourself? Seems to me like they’re all a bit behind in the human interaction department…

    After all, even high and mighty Branden should exercise a little bit politeness, as otherwise some Debian users could decide to just switch to SuSE or RedHat or something. Users don’t like to be bullied around.

    Ah, wait a minute! I forgot that debian maintainers are so k3W1 that they don’t care if nobody uses their distribution…

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Wednesday, 2002/01/23 – 23:13
    The poster is being a little bit impatient. Not too much but a little bit.

    Saying “leave the poor guy alone” is not offensive…

    If Rob had started cursing or something then it would be different, of course.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 02:24
    Its not being impatient to ASK how long they have to wait for.

    The comments here arent offensive, the mail thread linked to from the article probably are.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 10:52
    The comments here arent offensive, the mail thread linked to from the article probably are.Are you kidding me? This was the calmest response I ever read from Branden concerning a question like this. And please note that Jack Howarth is a Troll, and Branden _always_ flamed him big time when he posted on debian-devel. I was quite surprised by Branden’s response, actually.Michael

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 03:10
    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Are we there yet?

    Not impatient, but generally considerred bad form, especially when he could package it himself if he really wanted to.

    It would be different if 4.2.0 had been released a long time ago instead of just a couple days.

    Either way, it’s not a big deal… just that it gets tiring.

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    Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0
    Author: Anonymous
    Date: Thursday, 2002/01/24 – 03:19
    The parent post came out kind of like I was upset with d8A90n when I’m really not.

    D8A90n seems reasonable enough…

    There are people though who sometimes make really unreasonable demands.

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